cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 41

Now, thanks to interesting podcasts, including characters from German history as a whole and also Byzantine history! (More on this later.)

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From:

selenak

He says they're being persecuted; since he's used to being top dog, I wonder if this means "actually persecuted" or "just not able to persecute others any more".

Probably the later. Also, don't forget, this is when Christian Wolff comes back. And of course now is top dog and superstar of the Halle university, even if he's not Fritz' mentor as Manteuffel intended.

During the 18th century, lots of Germans go to Denmark.

Since

cahn is now listening to the History of the Germans podcast, she may or may not have already reached the episode where Dirk explains the origin of the Schleswig-Holstein question, i.e. possession of this much contested region wavering as much as the one of Lothringia/Lorraine does, plus the numbers of Danish-speaking and German-speaking communities in it changing as well. This is also a bone of contention then, and when in such a situation Germans start to dominate the court and the cultural life, to the point where the royal family itself is basically German, and the birth of nationalism waits around the late 18th century, early 19th century corner, you have an incendiary situation.

At this time, Gustav is married to Christian VII's sister

Not happily so, as I recall. Is this before or after he drafts the Finnish Sex Machine for reproductive help?

Struensee: I used to live next door to the Jewish ghetto and visit it. I agree, some Jews at court would be nice.

Hang on. He used to do this where, exactly? Because I seem to recall he lived in Hamburg post Halle and pre Denmark. And Hamburg, famously, had a large Jewish community, but no ghetto. Pöllnitz the chatty memoirists bitches about this in his travelogue which I haven't forgotten I'm supposed to read for salon. He's rather indignant that Catholics are under harder restrictions in Hamburg than Jews, who have synagogues and are allowed to live everywhere, shock horror.

(How the 18th century Jewish community fared in Halle, I have no idea, I admit.)

I can summarize the whole Struensee reforms for you in one word: Joseph.

They do sound like mental twins! And I agree, if the author doesn't make that obvious comparison, plus makes the FS mistake, he most likely had no idea what was going on with the Austrians in that era.

he never realized by going too fast was how much the luxury of the nobles was supporting the economy.

As I recall, FW initially made the same mistake for identical reasons - it comes up in the Gundling books - but managed to repair some of the damage with all the state boosting of clothing manufacturing now directed at army support. Of course, FW being a legitimate monarch, he didn't have to worry about being deposed. And he did manage to keep the nobility on his side.

Finally, the author expresses his disappointment in Voltaire, Diderot, Lessing, and the rest. Fritz satirizing Struensee is only to be expected of Fritz in his cynical old age, but where are the rest of the philosophes? Where's the outrage? Why didn't they try to protect him, if not his life, then at least rehabilitate his reputation posthumously?

Good question. Given we have Lehndorff's diaries as undoctored examples of a contemporary reaction, we know the way the story reached Prussia at least was that Caroline Mathilda (Lehndorff's latest "Messalina!!!!") and her evil lover intended to dope the poor King forever, if not actually poison him, and that heroic Juliana saved her stepson from this fate. Now, Lehndorff is working for Juliana's older sister, so it's not surprising this is how he heard the story. I recall some quotes from the Anna Amalia biography where her mother Charlotte mentions these events; again, Charlotte is married to Juliana's older brother, so she, too, has heard it this way. And Lessing works directly for Charlotte as a librarian. He gets his income from her.

Now you would expect the philosophes, as opposed to royalty and nobility, to be a bit more sceptical towards what to us sounds like blatant propaganda against a man of the enlightenment, but then again, that's spoken in an age for several sources of information are easily available. Remember, the way Voltaire first heard about the Calas affair was that indeed an evil Protestant Dad had offed his poor Catholic-attracted son, and he didn't doubt it but saw it as an example of how Protestants, too, could be fanatical. He only started to doubt it after members of the remaining Calas family approched him and presented him with more facts, and even then he did his research first before arriving at the "this is an outrageous miscarriage of justice!" conclusion. On the other hand, you have a number of enterprising Russian royal ladies in this very century who did manage a coup: Anna Ivanova, Elizabeth and Catherine. So, if you only have the official declaration to go on and are cynical about royals and their favourites to boot, I'd say the conclusion that maybe Caroline Mathilda and Struensee did intend to do away with Christian and rule with Caroline Mathilda as Regent for the kid son and Struensee as the string puller behind the scenes does not exactly sound unlikely. Especially considering that the free Danish press, while it existed, had presented Struensee as THE WORST, so it's not just Juliana who is saying this.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Not happily so, as I recall. Is this before or after he drafts the Finnish Sex Machine for reproductive help?

Oh, good question. *checks* Before! Finnish sex machine was 1775.

Hang on. He used to do this where, exactly?

*checks* Altona, in Denmark. I am taking the author's word for it, and he does screw up marriage dates even for his protagonists, so.

Now, Lehndorff is working for Juliana's older sister, so it's not surprising this is how he heard the story. I recall some quotes from the Anna Amalia biography where her mother Charlotte mentions these events; again, Charlotte is married to Juliana's older brother, so she, too, has heard it this way. And Lessing works directly for Charlotte as a librarian. He gets his income from her.

Oh, good catch. Of course he does.

On the other hand, you have a number of enterprising Russian royal ladies in this very century who did manage a coup: Anna Ivanova, Elizabeth and Catherine.

Very true, and the "Struensee and Caroline Matilda are going to pull a Catherine-Orlov!" rumors are flying high during the build-up to Struensee's fall. It had been less than 10 years!

Especially considering that the free Danish press, while it existed, had presented Struensee as THE WORST, so it's not just Juliana who is saying this.

Yeah, also true, and good point about Voltaire initially believing the Calas story. Poor Struensee. The deck was really just stacked against him. (And he didn't prioritize Christian! I mean, Christian sounds super annoying, and with the chance to Do Good, I totally get it. But still. Bad move in hindsight.)

From:

selenak

Altona is actually a part of Hamburg the city today, though I know it used to be Danish once upon a time. (It is mostly familiar to me as a train station - Hamburg has two for the fastest trains to stop at, Hamburg-Hauptbahnhof and Hamburg-Altona). I take it that means it was still next door to Hamburg in the 18th Century, so Struensee could have meant the living next door to the Hamburg Jews? Maybe?

If the Finnish Sex Machine was after Gustav got to hear about the disastrious result of a royal triangle in neighbouring Denmark, he‘s, well… on the other hand, he‘s Gustav.

Very true, and the "Struensee and Caroline Matilda are going to pull a Catherine-Orlov!" rumors are flying high during the build-up to Struensee's fall. It had been less than 10 years!

If you don‘t know them personally, especially if you’re living in a different country, it‘s not that far fetched an idea to have, alas.

Poor Struensee. The deck was really just stacked against him. (And he didn't prioritize Christian! I mean, Christian sounds super annoying, and with the chance to Do Good, I totally get it. But still. Bad move in hindsight.)

This is actually making me believe he might have been in love with Caroline Mathilda, because even without hindsight, he had nothing to gain and all to lose by spending more time than absolutely necessary with her. She has no influence at court, and less than zero influence with Christian. And it doesn‘t sound like she was an irresistable femme fatale. Having an affair with her is just a bad move by any rational consideration.

Incidentally, it occurs to me that in the AU where Struensee somehow pulls it off and remains Denmark‘s de facto ruler and Christian gets/remains stable and Caroline Mathilde remains free and content, a few years later her brother G3 has his first big breakdown. Does Struensee get consulted as the expert on mentally ill monarchs?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Altona is actually a part of Hamburg the city today, though I know it used to be Danish once upon a time. (It is mostly familiar to me as a train station - Hamburg has two for the fastest trains to stop at, Hamburg-Hauptbahnhof and Hamburg-Altona).

Haha, the book literally opens with a detailed description of the train journey from Altona to Copenhagen. The first sentence: "Sieben Eisenbahnstunden sind es von Altona bis Kopenhagen."

I take it that means it was still next door to Hamburg in the 18th Century, so Struensee could have meant the living next door to the Hamburg Jews? Maybe?

So Wikipedia confirms something that I now remember from the bio:

Altona has always seen itself as an "open city", as symbolized by the coat of arms with the open gate; politically or religiously persecuted people as well as people who were not tolerated elsewhere for economic reasons are taken in here: Dutch Reformed, Huguenots, Mennonites, Jews, unruly craftsmen, destitute residents of Hamburg driven out by the Napoleonic occupiers (winter 1813/14), but also long-forgotten sects like Adamites or Gichtelian. (Wiki)

The Hanseatic towns may scoff, the name "Altona" alone has a deeper meaning, the port is "all too close" to Hamburg: around 1750 Altona is still a very serious competitor for the Hanseatic city. And it was not without malice that the city coat of arms was matched to that of their rival brothers in Hamburg: the gate in the Altona coat of arms is not firmly closed, but rather wide open as a symbol of liberal cosmopolitanism. (Barz)

Both Barz and Wikipedia thus agree that the Jews were welcome in Altona just like other refugees, and Barz says (not confirmed by Wikipedia) says that they built a ghetto in Altona.

I don't have Struensee's address, but if salon has taught me one thing, it's that we'll find it sooner or later, if we care enough or maybe even by accident. ;)

If the Finnish Sex Machine was after Gustav got to hear about the disastrious result of a royal triangle in neighbouring Denmark, he‘s, well… on the other hand, he‘s Gustav.

Hahaha, well, it wasn't disastrous for Christian, was it! But yeah, he's also Gustav.

If you don‘t know them personally, especially if you’re living in a different country, it‘s not that far fetched an idea to have, alas.

Yep, agreed.

This is actually making me believe he might have been in love with Caroline Mathilda, because even without hindsight, he had nothing to gain and all to lose by spending more time than absolutely necessary with her.

Oh, I doubt he was in it just for his own motives. But was he serious or just having a good time? No idea.

Also, Barz at least seems to think that after Struensee played marriage counselor and reconciled Christian and Caroline Mathilde, she *did* have influence over her husband during that brief year, and that she would have been the second most powerful person at court. Also, I just checked and I remembered correctly: she, not Christian, is the one who decided Struensee should be in charge of the crown prince's education, after he has young Frederik inoculated and he survives a smallpox outbreak. Raising the crown prince is not nothing, if you're a reformer!

Now, how much all this talk of her influence reflects reality is true, I don't know--FS is a Frenchman, after all! But it's part of the reason Barz entertains the possibility that this was not true love.

Incidentally, it occurs to me that in the AU where Struensee somehow pulls it off and remains Denmark‘s de facto ruler and Christian gets/remains stable and Caroline Mathilde remains free and content, a few years later her brother G3 has his first big breakdown. Does Struensee get consulted as the expert on mentally ill monarchs?

That is quite the AU! He might, I don't know. The adultery scandal is a big deal, though. Caroline Mathilde's mother came out to visit her at one point and scold her about it, but no luck.

When Christian VII goes on his Grand Tour, though, the one that gets Struensee in the door as court physician, Christian gets to meet brother-in-law G3 in person, and the author comments that none of the people present knew that in a number of years, both kings would be mentally incapacitated. :/

Btw, this was before the marriage counseling, so Caroline Mathilde was *not* invited on this Grand Tour. If Christian hadn't cut it short early, she would have gone years without seeing her traveling husband.

Edited Date: 2023-02-12 08:50 pm (UTC)