Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 40

[cahn]

I'm trying to use my other account at least occasionally so I posted about my Yuletide gifts there, including the salon-relevant 12k fic that features Fritz, Heinrich, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Saint Germain, Caroline Daum (Fredersdorf's wife), and Groundhog Day tropes! (Don't need to know canon.)

Comments

Julian the Apostate

[selenak]

Incidentally, re: Julian, it's also worth pointing out that growing up in a Christian world means that despite being only fifty years or so separated from the pagan world of Diocletian & friends, he already approached "the old ways" with a rosy eyed and simultanously, paradoxically, Christian view. What I mean is: there is no religion "paganism" in the ancient world. There are a huge variety of cults and faiths, a great many of which are compatible with each other. I.e. it's no problem if you worship the Egyptian gods and the Roman gods. Or if you go with the trend and just focus on one, like the Sol Invictus worshippers. But at the same time, there's no reason why someone worshipping Apollo should care or contribute to what followers of Mithras do. When Justinian reinstalled (or tried to, the poor guy died not even two years into his reign, after all) the various faiths, he tried to organize them, since of course the very efficient way the Christians were organized had been one big reason Constantine was able to integrate them into the state so quickly. But you can't just come up with a head organization for "paganism" as if it was a single unified faith, because it never was. Julian had found about the old gods not by being raised in that faith, not by being converted by followers, but by reading in books about it - i.e. the same way many a neopagan does today - and finding it cool. But you can't (re)introduce religion that way. When he visited his first temple of Apollo post becoming Emperor, he was massively disappointed - everything was neglected, the priest wasn't very interested and went through lacklustre motions sacrificing a chicken (a chicken! how banal was that!).

Now, Julian was far from stupid, and various of the measures he introduced might have worked, if he'd lived longer and they'd been given time. He knew that straightforward persecution of Christians a la Diocletian and Galerius would just produce martyrs. He also knew one big appeal Christianity had was that it took care of the poor, and in a very organized way, and in addition to funding what temples and old faith followers he could find, he also obligated them to use some of that money for charity. Also, by giving permission to all religions to be practiced again, he did something Mike Duncan cracked me up by describing as: "Confronting Christians with the one enemy they hated, despised and feared the most: other Christians." I.e. if every religion is legal again, that means Arians and every other subsection of Christianity are just as valid as the orthodoxy his late uncle had thrown the weight of the state behind, and you can forget about the Council of Nicea having formulated the one true Credo.

Otoh, shortly before he took off to Persia to find his death, Julian issued a decree which was definitely discriminatory (and could possibly have worked) against Christians: he forbade any Christian to teach Homer and the other classics (who were already classics by then). You could either be a Christian or you could teach Homer, but not both. Why is this relevant? Because even in the post Constantine Christian world, you could not possibly have a good education without being taught Homer. No matter whether you were a Roman aristocrat or an ambitious state servant with an eye to a career in the administration, you would not get work as anything better than a market scribe without knowing your classics. So Christian parents had the choice of either letting their children be taught by non-Christians (thus exposing them to, Julian clearly hoped, a non-Christian mindset), or not giving them a good education.

Re: Julian the Apostate

[cahn]

*nods* that makes sense -- even 50 years out is enough for it to become nostalgic, so to speak.

he tried to organize them, since of course the very efficient way the Christians were organized had been one big reason Constantine was able to integrate them into the state so quickly.

Heh, I didn't realize that and I love it. Logistics for the win!

When he visited his first temple of Apollo post becoming Emperor, he was massively disappointed - everything was neglected, the priest wasn't very interested and went through lacklustre motions sacrificing a chicken (a chicken! how banal was that!).

lolololol! Poor Julian :D

He knew that straightforward persecution of Christians a la Diocletian and Galerius would just produce martyrs.

That's... putting him above quite a lot of other people :P Although I suppose he had direct and recent evidenec for this!

he did something Mike Duncan cracked me up by describing as: "Confronting Christians with the one enemy they hated, despised and feared the most: other Christians." I.e. if every religion is legal again, that means Arians and every other subsection of Christianity are just as valid as the orthodoxy his late uncle had thrown the weight of the state behind, and you can forget about the Council of Nicea having formulated the one true Credo.

AHAHAHAHA omg. It's funny because it's true!
(argh, I have to start listening to these podcasts! My master plan has suffered a setback due to the car with the good audio system being less available for a month or so, but one day maybe I'll get to it...)

So Christian parents had the choice of either letting their children be taught by non-Christians (thus exposing them to, Julian clearly hoped, a non-Christian mindset), or not giving them a good education.

Ooh, that's really interesting.