cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 38

Gonna go ahead and make this post even though Yuletide is coming...

But in the meantime, there has been some fic in the fandom posted!

Holding His Space (2503 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, 18th Century CE Frederician RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Relationships: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf/Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Characters: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Protectiveness, Domestic, Character Study
Summary:

Five times Fredersdorf has to stay behind - and one time Friedrich doesn't leave.

Using People (3392 words) by prinzsorgenfrei
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great/Hans Hermann von Katte
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Hans Hermann von Katte
Additional Tags: Fluff, Idiots in Love, reading plays aloud while gazing into each others eyes
Summary:

Friedrich had started to talk to him because he had thought of him as a bit of a ditz.
And now here he was. Here he was months later, bundled up in this very same man’s blankets with a cup of hot coffee in front of him, its scent mixing with that of Katte’s French perfume.
_
Fluffy One Shot about one traitorous Crown Prince and the sycophant he accidentally fell for.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Okay, I think maybe we were talking about two different things? I thought we were talking about putting the blame for the escape failing on Fritz's hare-brained schemes, but now it sounds like you were talking about assigning blame for the conflict in the first place? If the latter, then yes, (most) contemporaries understood that FW was the problem here! Fritz was being normal! Even if they thought it was his duty to *obey* his father, everyone (exceptions for Stratemann and apparently Fassman) knew FW was wacko by the standards of his day. (Including in some ways that we would find *good* today.)

But if we were talking about Fritz's hare-brained schemes, well, yes, everyone was writing with the benefit of hindsight because, almost by definition, their opinions on the schemes would be recorded after the schemes came to light (barring some envoy reports beforehand, I guess). And Wilhelmine was far from the only one to go, "Okay, but that was a terrible and poorly executed idea." Catt, for one. Maybe he was reporting the words straight out of Fritz's mouth, but he certainly decided to include this assessment of the plan as hare-brained.

And Lt. Borcke, who had been close to Fritz when he was about 16 (and got enough romantic-sounding letters that biographers have speculated whether that was just 18th century flowery speak or whether it meant more), but soon after seems to have drifted away from Fritz, wrote, "I mourn the fate of the one who is its main object, but I do not pity the doers for this pernicious design, badly digested and badly executed." I'm not sure who he's pitying there (it's August 1730, so can't be Katte yet), FW or Fritz, but that's pretty victim-blamey.

I feel like there have to be other examples, too: the plan was actually unlikely to succeed! I just think people (like this poet) should stop blaming him for trying and acting like it was his fault that it ended badly and Katte died. Okay, maybe lying to Katte was not great (though I understand the desperation), but I don't see anybody complaining about that part! (Because no one but Selena has picked up on it. ;))

Also she dislikes all her brother’s boyfriends except Voltaire on general principle. :)

And Algarotti! And if there was one of them he had sex with, surely it was Algarotti. ;)

ETA: Or, wait, are we talking about whose fault it is that Katte died? Lol, I can't tell *what* we're talking about any more. :P

If that, then, yes, there are a ton of examples of contemporaries going "WTF" at FW overriding the verdict of the tribunal. But, let's not forget that the tribunal was split, and half of the officers (who voted by rank) voted for Katte to die. It was only the tiebreaker vote by one (very brave) person that meant the overall vote was for life imprisonment. I can't imagine they were the only people in all of Prussia who thought Katte deserved to die for what he did.

Actually, I forgot, Eugene said something about "I originally thought the whole Katte thing was too bad (not that FW didn't have the right to order his death, but that it's going to mean bad PR in England), but now that I've read the Puncta, and I've heard Katte was intriguing with foreign envoys, and that the votes of the court martial were split between life imprisonment and death, I'm not sure if it wasn't for the best." And now that I'm looking at Eugene's letter, god, this sentence goes on forever (please end your sentences, German speakers) and is interspersed with random phrases made up of French and Latin words, but I think he's saying FW has published the species facti (Katte's confession) and demonstrated that the death sentence wasn't an unjust and overhasty decision, but a well-thought out judgment, and I think Eugene is saying that Charles VI thinks so too.

So regardless of what we're talking about, I think contemporaries were divided!

(Okay, I like a linguistic challenge as much as the next person, but this sentence has 36 clauses (as counted by commas), and that is just *too* *many*. :P)

Daughter of ETA: And the reason looking at the Puncta changed Eugene's mind was that Katte tells Fritz not to listen to flatterers, and Eugene goes, "...You can tell that means he was doing some flattering and Fritz was listening to it." So, blaming both victims there.

Son of ETA: Charles VI is MT's dad,

cahn; do I need to keep making that connection, or are we good? I'm sorry he never thought he was a penguin so that we could give him a snappy and memorable nickname, but it's probably for the best for him. :P

Edited Date: 2022-11-19 04:21 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

Cahn will have to clear up which blaming she was talking about. The poem, I thought, was saying that Katte was fabulous for not blaming Fritz for his death, even though he could have due to the less than bright escape scheme.

But the whole branching out to who blamed whom among contemporaries reminded me we acthally have a (Melchior) Guy Dickens report to tell us that the people blaming Fritz for Katte included….drumroll… FW: To quote from my origional write-up:

“ The December 9th report includes the Queen's chaplain brings news to Dickens from SD, containing these gems, featuring FW foiled by theologians and being fan of Katte, I kid you not: The love and friendship which the Prince and his sister have felt from earliest youth for each other makes them both equally hateful to the King. Just a few days ago, the King consulted eight theologians (four Lutherans and four Calvinists) as to whether a father didn't have the right to marry his daughter to whomever he pleases? Only one, the preacher of the garnison church, was of this opinion. All others declared strictly against it. The King now shows much sympathy and compassion for Katte's death. He says: He was a promising young man whose death must have been painful for his entire family. These conversations, he ends every time by asking everyone present whether not the Prince, as the cause of Katte's death, has very much to answer for. “

Which takes the cake, so to speak. On a more understandable note, we weren’t sure for a while whether Hans Heinrich’s statement in a letter that he’s struggling to forgive was referring to FW or Fritz, though eventually decided me most likely meant FW, not least because of some new info like the rumors Stratemann heard about Hans Heinrich offering his resignation etc.

To perform a complete mood swing and go for something lighter hearted when it comes to Fritz and trip-in-disguise-planning, a decade after the ill fated escape attempt, there’s of course the aborted Straßburg trip, which is very entertaining but none of the participants cover themselves in organzational glory. (Manteuffel does, for despite being banished still having at least one spy directly near Fritz and a super effective and fast courier service.) So we might agree on Fritz, even when he’s not being an 18 years old fleeing from a life long abusive situation, being not the best secret travel planner (and executer). His strategic abilities were in other eras.

Edited Date: 2022-11-20 06:06 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yeah, I was thinking of reminding everyone of that FW blaming Katte quote, but in a slightly different context: Remember that part of the reason so many people thought Katte didn't deserve to die was that he repented. That includes some of the members on the tribunal who voted for life imprisonment, and it of course includes FW.

So even when it comes to the people who blame FW for overriding the sentence, many of them are still implicitly blaming Fritz for being the root cause of the problem here.

On a more understandable note, we weren’t sure for a while whether Hans Heinrich’s statement in a letter that he’s struggling to forgive was referring to FW or Fritz, though eventually decided me most likely meant FW, not least because of some new info like the rumors Stratemann heard about Hans Heinrich offering his resignation etc.

Yep, agreed, I didn't include that one because we eventually decided on FW. Though I would be kind of surprised if he din't *also* consider Fritz the root of all evil, if not the one who overrode the sentence. But we have no direct evidence for that.

So we might agree on Fritz, even when he’s not being an 18 years old fleeing from a life long abusive situation, being not the best secret travel planner (and executer). His strategic abilities were in other eras.

This is SO TRUE. I believe he was outed in the Netherlands too, although less dramatically.

From:

cahn

The poem, I thought, was saying that Katte was fabulous for not blaming Fritz for his death, even though he could have due to the less than bright escape scheme.

Yes, exactly. It was specifically the question, "whom should Katte blame for his death," that I thought the poem was speaking about. And my point of view is that everyone should BLAME FW, because IT IS HIS FAULT. Not only because of his abuse of Fritz which led to the whole chain of events, but also because... he condemned Katte to death! Which he totally didn't have to do! (And at the same time, as you've said, I would not blame him for having some residual resentment/blame in regard to Fritz, because the escape scheme was very instrumental in his death, but all the evidence that we have doesn't point to conscious blame, at least, and a lot of "no, really, I don't blame you!")

On a more understandable note, we weren’t sure for a while whether Hans Heinrich’s statement in a letter that he’s struggling to forgive was referring to FW or Fritz, though eventually decided me most likely meant FW, not least because of some new info like the rumors Stratemann heard about Hans Heinrich offering his resignation etc.

I was thinking about this -- that Hans Heinrich blamed FW for Katte's death (which we think is true), and that pastor guy all but said that too.

The King now shows much sympathy and compassion for Katte's death. He says: He was a promising young man whose death must have been painful for his entire family. These conversations, he ends every time by asking everyone present whether not the Prince, as the cause of Katte's death, has very much to answer for. “

BUT ALSO. FW. OMG.