cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 38

Gonna go ahead and make this post even though Yuletide is coming...

But in the meantime, there has been some fic in the fandom posted!

Holding His Space (2503 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, 18th Century CE Frederician RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Relationships: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf/Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Characters: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Protectiveness, Domestic, Character Study
Summary:

Five times Fredersdorf has to stay behind - and one time Friedrich doesn't leave.

Using People (3392 words) by prinzsorgenfrei
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great/Hans Hermann von Katte
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Hans Hermann von Katte
Additional Tags: Fluff, Idiots in Love, reading plays aloud while gazing into each others eyes
Summary:

Friedrich had started to talk to him because he had thought of him as a bit of a ditz.
And now here he was. Here he was months later, bundled up in this very same man’s blankets with a cup of hot coffee in front of him, its scent mixing with that of Katte’s French perfume.
_
Fluffy One Shot about one traitorous Crown Prince and the sycophant he accidentally fell for.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

cahn

The Fleury stuff is interesting!

Good faith and sincerity are not his favourite virtues

Hee! This made me laugh too.

and he is false in everything, even in his caresses.

I imagine he meant this figuratively, but of course my brain wants to treat this literally :D TELL ME MORE FLEURY :D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I KNOW RIGHT

Come to think of it, I feel like insincere "caress" shows up a lot in discussions of Fritz. I can think of two other examples. (One is Voltaire, of course, but one is not.)

ETA: Actually, all three I can think of are French: Voltaire, Guibert, and now Fleury. Does Valori? I bet he does. I still want to learn French so I can read his memoirs.

Good faith and sincerity are not his favourite virtues

I am reminded of the Bisset (editor of the Andrew Mitchell papers) comment that Selena quoted for us:

He himself is a bit more snarky about Fritz than Mitchell - there's a footnote to a Mitchell letter where Mitchell writes that in Fritz' breast there are competing "a most delicate sense of honor" with "the utmost capriciousness"; the footnote snarks that evidently Mitchell didn't know Fritz as well in 1758 as he thought since clearly as opposed to such men as Mitchell himself or the worthy brothers Keith (the Scots), honor and Fritz were at best nodding aquaintances, if not altogether strangers.

Edited Date: 2022-11-15 05:32 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

I feel like insincere "caress" shows up a lot in discussions of Fritz. I can think of two other examples. (One is Voltaire, of course, but one is not.)

I bet Valori wrote something similar, because Fleury clearly is basing this on the envoy reports he‘s gotten. I mean, the later Scottish-French envoy had a similar opinion of Fritz, but he‘s too late to influence Fleury in 1741.

Seckendorff to Eugene has Fritz as a lying liar who lies early on, but minus the caresses. (You know, in the „if you think the kid is going to show gratitude to us, he won‘t, he‘s got a lousy character“ letter to which Eugene replied to try and reconcile FW and Fritz anyway.) Meanwhile, Suhm would insist Fritzian caresses to be sincere! Hm - Manteuffel perhaps? After all, I seem to recall Seckendorff the nephew‘s report said Fritz acted „tenderly“ towards Le Diable in the brief heyday of their „friendship“ (you know,l when Fritz was handing out golden Socrates heads to more than one person and swore he was totalyl the Alciabades in those relationships….

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I bet Valori wrote something similar, because Fleury clearly is basing this on the envoy reports he‘s gotten.

Yep, what I was thinking!

Meanwhile, Suhm would insist Fritzian caresses to be sincere!

Hee! So, funny thing, I was looking at the Münchow letter yesterday, and I laughed because he had Fritz caressing him, also sincerely!

Hm - Manteuffel perhaps? After all, I seem to recall Seckendorff the nephew‘s report said Fritz acted „tenderly“ towards Le Diable in the brief heyday of their „friendship“ (you know,l when Fritz was handing out golden Socrates heads to more than one person and swore he was totalyl the Alciabades in those relationships….

Oooh, you're right! Huh, I really want that character sketch I ordered! Go faster, Deutsche Post! (Also, as I recall, Manteuffel was going to do a "positive traits" and "negative traits" essay, but, being wordy like me, he only managed to finish the positive traits before Fritz became king, so he never wrote the negative traits (because they became immediately obvious???) one.) Anyway, I wonder if he said anything about the caresses!

Btw, the Guibert quote, courtesy of

felis, is this, from (apparently?) 1773:

Guibert first saw the king at the parade on June 16th: "On horseback one would think he was a centaur," he notes in his diary [...] June 19th: “Bought his image: true to the clothes, the costume; small sword of copper; cane decorated with diamonds; also always has several very rich snuffboxes with him, pulling out three or four different ones while I was chatting with him; has thousands of them in store, a strange contrast to his simplicity otherwise. I come back to his picture: resembles him, as they say, when he is at the head of his troops, but doesn't resemble the prince who spoke to me at all. Result of the peculiar changeability of his physiognomy: it caresses to the right and threatens to the left. This changeability is present in his mind, in his character, in an abundance of details of his behavior; It is never the same, you never know what it will be: but this bizarness, these apparent inconsistencies always have a principle. If one could observe him closely, one would find the origin of ideas that sometimes makes him act the opposite. Marquis d'Argens said that he had never seen anyone whose inconsistencies were more consistent and considered."

Which reminded me not a little of Lafayette's 1785 quote, which I've shared before:

"To Potsdam I went to make my bow to the king, and notwithstanding what I had heard of him, could not help being struck with the dress and appearance of an old, broken, dirty corporal, covered all over with Spanish snuff, with his head almost leaning on one shoulder, and fingers almost distorted by the gout; but what surprises me much more is the fire, and sometimes the softness, of the most beautiful eyes I ever saw, which give as charming an expression to his physiognomy, as he can take a rough and threatening one at the head of his troops."

Consistent in his inconsistencies indeed!

From:

selenak

That's also what Valori writes in his reports, see here - He has beautiful blue eyes which are a bit too strongly pronounced, but easily reflect his moods, so their expression varies depending on his state of mind. If he's dissatisfied with something, their gaze is threatening, but nothing is more soft, gracious and captivating than if he's in a mood to please. His hair is thick, mouth and nose agreeable, his smile charming and witty, but often bitter and mocking. When his soul is peaceful, the softness of his gaze can charm anyone. and of course the famous It is impossible to possess more esprit than he does, but very possible to make a better use of it. He's never more charming than if he wants to please you, and he always wants this to flatter his love of self. Once he has charmed you, he neglects you and regards you as his slave, who is there to obey him in a servile manner and to put up with all his moods. Which sounds like false caresses indeed. :)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Tying together three recent discussions for

luzula:

British secretary Guy-Dickens: Fritz, please don't run away. We don't want you in England.

Fritz: I promise not to run away if Dad doesn't take me along when he goes on his trip, if you give me money. I have lots of debts, don't tell Dad.

Guy-Dickens: How much do you need?

*later*

Fritz: Ha! I told him double the amount I actually needed for my debts, so I could use the rest as running-away money. And I never promised not to run away if Dad did take me on the trip. Loophole FTW!

*even later*

Fritz: You may say sincerity isn't my favorite virtue, but you need to realize it started with me being afraid my father was literally going to choke me to death, and no one wanted to help.

[Peter: Me! I wanted to help! Why was I not special when I came back?

Spaen: The King has an excellent memory right up to 1730.]

Edited Date: 2022-11-16 08:45 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Peter: Me! I wanted to help! Why was I not special when I came back?

Doris Ritter publically whipped all over Spandau as a whore despite being a virgin, put into the workhouse, and later getting zero acknowledgment other than Voltaire making a quip about her haggard looks and her husband getting the 18th century equivalent of a taxi driver license: MEN!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yeah, she objectively had it worse, maybe tied with Katte. Like you said, at least Katte got treated with respect, had the comfort of knowing he loved and was loved, etc.

But Peter remains unique in that he's the only one who, as far as we know, didn't try to talk Fritz out of it, didn't need to be lied to, and put everything he had into helping Fritz escape. Admittedly, we don't know what conversations they were having in 1729. But Peter remained pretty convinced about the need to escape for at least a whole year, through at least 3 attempts!

(It's not zero-sum, they ALL had it bad. Wilhelmine, Doris, Peter, Katte, Spaen, Duhan, all of them. FW WHY)

From:

cahn

lolololol! What's the Voltaire quote again?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Well, it's not exactly Fritz being insincere with his own caresses, but it's a complaint along similar lines:

He used to call his monkey Frederic II and call Fritz "Luc", after his monkey Luc, and say that Fritz was "like a monkey, he bites the hand that caresses him."

I'm quite sure there must also be a Voltaire quote about Fritz's own caresses being insincere somewhere, though! It's too good to pass up!