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cahnGonna go ahead and make this post even though Yuletide is coming...
But in the meantime, there has been some fic in the fandom posted!
Holding His Space (2503 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, 18th Century CE Frederician RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Relationships: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf/Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Characters: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Protectiveness, Domestic, Character Study
Summary:
Using People (3392 words) by prinzsorgenfrei
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great/Hans Hermann von Katte
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Hans Hermann von Katte
Additional Tags: Fluff, Idiots in Love, reading plays aloud while gazing into each others eyes
Summary:
But in the meantime, there has been some fic in the fandom posted!
Holding His Space (2503 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, 18th Century CE Frederician RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Relationships: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf/Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Characters: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Protectiveness, Domestic, Character Study
Summary:
Five times Fredersdorf has to stay behind - and one time Friedrich doesn't leave.
Using People (3392 words) by prinzsorgenfrei
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great/Hans Hermann von Katte
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Hans Hermann von Katte
Additional Tags: Fluff, Idiots in Love, reading plays aloud while gazing into each others eyes
Summary:
Friedrich had started to talk to him because he had thought of him as a bit of a ditz.
And now here he was. Here he was months later, bundled up in this very same man’s blankets with a cup of hot coffee in front of him, its scent mixing with that of Katte’s French perfume.
_
Fluffy One Shot about one traitorous Crown Prince and the sycophant he accidentally fell for.
Re: More Peter Keith findings
Date: 2022-11-13 09:20 pm (UTC)Oh, you ask me about Katte's character!
The short answer is, yes and no. The long answer...Settle in. :D
He was definitely brave and died with style, no question.
We're pretty sure he minded dying, like you do. One of the people who was with him until he died said that though Katte was putting a very brave face on it and cheering everyone around him up, you could see flesh and blood struggling with the realization of imminent death in his last hours.
One of the Danish envoys said that Katte "lost all countenance and burst into tears" when his death sentence was read. (This is in contradiction to Wilhelmine's claim that he heard his sentence read without changing countenance. Either could be correct, since both were reporting hearsay, but the Danish envoys were writing as events unfolded and they tended to have pretty good sources aka spies, and Wilhelmine was writing ten years later without access to the archives and noticeably got a lot wrong--like she has him being executed on a scaffold.)
Some sources Selena got hold of convinced me that Katte's display of piety and belief in eternal life was genuine, not an act put on to look good for FW and reassure his own father/family. But even with a belief in eternal life and a belief that this was God's will, he clearly minded very much.
Did he blame Fritz? I think he genuinely loved Fritz and pitied him, even at the end, and really wanted to make him feel better. During his last night, when they were both imprisoned in separate rooms in the same fortress, Katte was begging to be allowed to go talk to Fritz, even for fifteen minutes, to reassure him. All the authorities would agree to was to run messages back and forth, conveying, "I know you must hate me! This is all my fault!" "No, Fritz, it's not your fault! It's God's will! I still love you!" And then, of course, they got that famous last, hand-kissing encounter where Katte's main concern was to reassure Fritz.
I have always read Katte as not wanting to die but, given that he had to, being very glad that he could die in the presence of the person he was willing to die for. I think (I hope) it gave him some comfort, even though doing it that way was hella hard on Fritz. (I think
Could he have harbored a smidge of resentment toward Fritz? We have evidence that Fritz harbored a smidge of resentment toward Katte several years later, and we've definitely speculated that Wilhelmine and Fritz resented each other (her for him being willing to abandon her to the punishment/abuse that came from FW being furious at Fritz escaping, him for her trying to talk him into enduring the abuse indefinitely).
Yeah, mixed feelings are a thing, and given that these people didn't have a well-developed framework for talking about abuse and victim blaming and such, some repressed resentment is to be expected.
We of salon don't *think* Katte ever figured out Fritz had lied to him to get him to help with the escape attempt when he was reluctant, but it's possible he did, or that he wondered.
But I think, even if he had some repressed resentment, Katte's surface feelings were genuinely love and concern for Fritz, and that wasn't an act he put on for the sake of "good manners."
As for why Fritz resented Katte later, I think two reasons: One, he was one of the people who tried to pressure Fritz into staying in an abusive situation and demonstrably had to be lied to to get him out. (Lie: "My father's ministers want to make me a Catholic!") Two, I think Fritz was doing the victim blaming thing himself and blaming Katte for not pulling off his end of the plan and escaping when he was supposed to (possibly because it was legit hard, possibly because he really was hoping the whole thing would blow over and Fritz would come home), leaving Fritz in a situation where he had to live with the guilt of Katte's death.
P.S. This poet is very victim blame-y. Yes, it was a hare-brained scheme, but it was also the desperate act of someone whose entire life until now has been "abused child" and is now looking forward to a life as "abused adult." He had virtually no support, the deck was stacked against him, and what exactly about his life up until now had trained him in the art of making and executing on well-thought-out escape plans? One of the other victims of FW's horrific abuse, an adult who hadn't even been raised in this situation, escaped twice and got dragged back both times.
If you study psychology and abuse, you see a whole lot of "But why didn't the abuse victim [do X]?" and the answer is that they're at the mercy of someone else and that trauma warps your brain and makes it hard to think in a purely rational manner.
The two main hare-brained features of Fritz's plans are:
1. Everyone knew about them.
2. He kept trying to make his move too soon. It's been argued that if he'd waited until the party reached Wesel, he might have made it. (And even Katte was trying to convince him to wait until Wesel.)
Well, the reason everyone knew about these plans was that Fritz's teenage years went like this:
Fritz: "Person A, please help me escape!"
Person A: "I don't want to lose my head/lose my job/start a war! Please don't run away!"
Fritz: "Person B, please, PLEASE talk my father into letting me take a vacation!"
Person B: "Sorry, no can do. Have you tried being nicer to your father so he's nicer to you?"
Fritz: "Person C, I'm begging you!"
Person C: "Here's some money, kid, if you promise not to try to run away."
and so on. Until persons A-Z in the kingdom have all heard that Fritz is trying to escape. The more time we've spent in salon, the more examples we've turned up.
Now, I'm sympathetic to people who were *also* afraid of FW, but the poor kid just got told to steel himself for a lifetime of this, even by the people who loved him the most. So of course he's increasingly desperate, and of course word gets out.
The only person I have evidence knew about the escape attempt and don't have evidence he tried to talk Fritz out of it was...Peter Keith, the only person who made a sincere effort to run away himself (and made it). And that just means we don't *know* that he ever tried the "But have you tried being nicer to your father?" line on Fritz, because he's poorly attested in the records.
(But I like to think Peter was all, "Yeah, your father's awful, he beats me for reading too, let's go!" This is my headcanon.)
And, of course, Fritz kept trying to make moves when there was very little chance of him getting away. Well, it's easy to sit here in a comfy chair and go, "You should have waited!" but the thing is, given that he was NEVER not supervised by Dad's agents, there was no good time. There's no guarantee he would have made it at Wesel. He didn't get caught at Steinsfurt because it was too far from the border, while Wesel was closer. He got caught at Steinsfurt because the several adults supervising him never let him get as far as getting on a horse and making a break for it. What exactly would have been different a few days later?
Keith, as a random lieutenant in the army, had more freedom in Wesel, and he was allowed to get on a horse and ride around unsupervised as long as he gave some excuse. So he was able to get a head start and make it over the border before his absence was noted at roll call the next day.
Call the escape attempt "hare-brained," but a better word might be "impossible," and I don't blame Fritz for trying anyway. (Trust me, if he hadn't tried, the same people who are calling it hare-brained would have said, "Well, the abuse can't have been that bad, or he would have tried to run away!" That's how victim-blaming works.)
Me: I have a lot of feelings. :P
Fritz and the MT marriage project
Date: 2022-11-14 07:31 am (UTC)Huh. So while this was definitely a lie, I had the impression from Selena's summaries that Fritz was actually proposing to convert to Catholicism in spring of 1731. Today I had to go read these letters myself for the first time, as part of my Peter Keith citation work (this bit comes up in the essay, because it's too good not to include in a footnote), and I find that what Fritz actually says is, "I will marry the archduchess as long as I don't have to convert, because I never ever want to do that as long as I live." And Grumbkow writes to Wolden, "This whole thing doesn't make sense, among other reasons because there's no way they'd let the archduchess marry a prince who wasn't totally Catholic."
Would he have been willing? Presumably. But it makes sense that he was smart enough not to admit that up front to arch-Protestant Dad.
The other thing I found that was super interesting was something we've talked about a lot in salon in our various AUs. Grumbkow says, "As for renouncing his Prussian claims, that'll never work, because everyone knows no one ever keeps their word on a renunciation like this unless there's force involved."
This is so true! I mean, we saw what happened with Philip V "the Frog" (
ETA: Speaking of Grumbkow and sources for this essay, though,
Re: Fritz and the MT marriage project
Date: 2022-11-14 08:07 am (UTC)Re: Fritz and the MT marriage project
Date: 2022-11-14 08:11 am (UTC)Re: More Peter Keith findings
Date: 2022-11-17 07:51 pm (UTC)Ah no, I do not. I did go to
Philip "the Frog" V of Spain
Date: 2022-11-17 11:06 pm (UTC)Cast of Characters
Philip V: King of Spain
Isabella: Queen of Spain
Rottembourg: French envoy to FW's Prussia and then to Philip V's Spain.
Morgenstern: German scholar who worked for FW and wrote a bio of FW.
First mission (October 1727-April 1728)
Rottembourg appears to have escaped before matters peaked in June, but I also don't know exactly when certain symptoms began. What I've got is this:
May 1727 - end of 1727: Philip V severely depressed, unwilling to speak to his ministers. Will listen to reports, but "no sign of hearing other than a gesture now and then or a fleeting smile."
Early 1728: Back in business, but severe attacks. Doesn't see ministers for weeks at a time, and then will only see them at night, and will keep them up until dawn. Audiences with ambassadors are held at midnight.
June is when he starts wanting to abdicate for the second time. (Remember, he abdicated once, gave the throne to his son, and his son died of smallpox after about 7 months.) His wife, Isabella, tries to prevent him. She has all writing implements removed, and keeps a close guard on him. So Philip tries escaping by sneaking out at 5 am, while she's asleep, and flees the palace in his nightshirt. She has the guards stop him, changes the locks, and gives the guards orders not to let him escape, but he tries this several times.
Finally, on June 28, he sneaks some paper while Isabella's in another room for a minute, writes out his abdication, and has his most trusted servant smuggle it into the council. The council session is discussing it when Isabella's messenger arrives, confiscates the piece of paper, and destroys it.
During this summer, and I don't know how early it started and whether some of them would have been affecting Rottembourg by April, but we've got these symptoms:
* Giving audiences to ambassadors either in his nightshirt or almost naked.
* Paranoia, delusions, and hallucinations.
* Biting himself.
* Screaming and/or singing.
* Urinating and defecating in bed.
* Believing he's a frog (July). (Rottembourg's replacement as ambassador arrived in June. Man, I don't envy him.)
* Believing that he's dead.
* Bulimia.
Rottembourg gets the hell out just in time, it seems. But he's back in 1730, which is when things are really crazy, and for a much longer time.
Second mission: (December 1730-April 1734)
During most of this time, the court isn't in Madrid, it's in Andalusia, and it's peripatetic. This is Isabella's idea for how to make Philip's mental health improve: change of scenery.
This means tons of expenses for the ambassadors. Ambassadors were notoriously in arrears for their salaries, and most were rich and the rest supported by their families. Random expenses like "The King decided to move his court" have to be covered out of pocket. So Rottembourg, who was himself very rich, had to sell property to cover these years.
And then there's the part where summer 1730 is when Philip's mental health crashes again. He's severely depressed, bulimic, and consuming vast amounts of poison antidotes (I don't know the details) because of his paranoia. He's convinced that his stools contain blood; when he inspects them and they aren't, he accuses the doctors of concealing the blood. His toenails get so long it's difficult to walk. He won't let anyone do his hair, so it turns into a complete mess. He smells terrible. His only entertainment is fishing...in his garden...at night...from a bowl that his attendants have placed fish in.
But he won't give up power, either. He walks around muttering, "I'm the boss here" (Je suis le maître), and making things difficult to prove it. If you give him a stack of papers to be signed in a certain order, he'll rearrange the papers when you're not looking.
And, of course, he's conducting all business at night. Upon arriving, Rottembourg describes the situation as "incomprehensible", and complains about being kept in meetings until 6 am. Meanwhile, Isabella is trying to conduct a normal life during the day and take care of her husband and help him with state business at night.
June 1731: Rottembourg reports that he shows up for an audience at night, but the queen has collapsed from exhaustion and is fast asleep, and Philip hasn't slept in 48 hours. So Rottembourg waits until 7 am, at which point he's told they can't see him until 5:30 pm.
By July, Philip is getting one hour of sleep a night, his legs are swollen, and everyone's convinced he's going to die.
A year later, after a brief manic episode, he's back to depressed, with no hygiene, and refusing to talk to anyone because he's dead. Also, he's extremely concerned that because he had abdicated, then became king again after his son died, his rule is invalid. By not talking, he can avoid ruling!
In October 1732, he decides he's going to talk, but only to his valet. He then starts explaining how he's going to unite the crowns of France and Spain to his valet...but no one else.
In November, he breaks his streak of not talking to ministers and ambassadors by insisting that he needs to talk to Rottembourg. "The startled count was presented with the spectacle of a king with clothing completely disordered, with a long and filthy beard, and wearing no trousers or shoes, his legs and feet naked."
This is the kind of thing that could make you miss FW forcing you to get drunk!
In conclusion, Rottembourg may well have been quoted as saying, "However bad Berlin was, it was better than Madrid!" (At least there was the SD court in Berlin when FW was away.)
*****
So for this reason, whenever we need to remind
Btw, flipping through his bio recently for the Spain in the War of the Austrian Succession discussion, I am reminded that later in life, around the time of said war, one of his delusions was that a ray of sunlight had pierced his shoulder and penetrated his inner organs.
Again, poor guy.
Re: Philip "the Frog" V of Spain
Date: 2022-11-18 08:40 am (UTC)Re: Philip "the Frog" V of Spain
Date: 2022-11-18 08:44 am (UTC)1. He had already abdicated once (this is why he thinks he's not legally king!), but promptly started micromanaging his son from "retirement", being unable to let go*.
2. That son had died after 6 months, not setting a great precedent.
3. His remaining sons were all minors and would have needed a regency (and Isabella would have had to follow him into retirement again, something she was obviously not interested in doing),.
4. Spain had just come out of a major war over the succession and no one was interested in more instability.
So...just an awful situation all around.
* Selena and Cahn, AU where Fritz *does* abdicate like he always talked about, but does this exact thing.
Re: Philip "the Frog" V of Spain
Date: 2022-11-18 05:03 pm (UTC)Selena and Cahn, AU where Fritz *does* abdicate like he always talked about, but does this exact thing.
When exactly does he abdicate, though? I feel like that's a factor when it comes to the micromanaging. If he leaves it until very late in the game, future FW2 has already become friends with all the people who'll influence him to keep Heinrich out once Fritz dies in rl. If, otoh, he abdicates while future FW2 is still a teenager (just legally adult), then Heinrich has a good shot at being first minister, and I bet he won't be micromanaged. Though he might have fun telling Fritz he could show up once a year for the annual spring review if he absolutely wants to contribute...
Re: Philip "the Frog" V of Spain
Date: 2022-11-19 02:13 am (UTC)Hahaha! To be fair, the other surefire remedy was war--Philip was at his best when he was in an army camp or throwing himself into the middle of a battle and freaking out all his supporters. To quote Horowski:
The birth of the French king's son had catapulted him not only out of his position as direct heir to France, but also back into the depression that a successful war against Morocco had only briefly interrupted. For months the king lay on his bed with a finger in his open mouth, not allowing himself to be shaved or his shirts changed, and refusing to speak, saying he was dead. It was with great difficulty that they were finally able to get him to talk again, but that was of little help because he now didn't want to speak to anyone except his valet, to whom he then (still wearing only a nightshirt) explained his rights to the French throne for hours. However, as soon as he received the news from Poland [of August II's death and the impending war over the Polish succession], Philip V jumped out of bed to have his long beard shaved, as if nothing had happened. He promptly fell back into his hyperactivity mode.
When exactly does he abdicate, though? I feel like that's a factor when it comes to the micromanaging.
Hmm. Well, I feel like it would be fun watching him try anyway. :P
Though he might have fun telling Fritz he could show up once a year for the annual spring review if he absolutely wants to contribute...
See! It would be fun! :D
Re: Philip "the Frog" V of Spain
Date: 2022-11-19 05:42 am (UTC)I... yeah, I want this :P
And I would also take FW abdicating, although I don't really see what would cause him to do that?
Re: Philip "the Frog" V of Spain
Date: 2022-11-19 08:14 am (UTC)Mind you, there's also the story from Wilhelmine's memoirs that FW shortly before the first Dresden trip had a particularly strong attack of pietism and considered retiring to live a godly life at Wusterhausen, with his daughters managing his household, while Fritz took over government. He talked about it with some pastors, but this idea didn't last, and at any event evidently hanging out with August the Strong later that year cured him of any remnants of it.
Re: Philip "the Frog" V of Spain
Date: 2022-11-22 05:52 am (UTC)