18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 38

[cahn]

Gonna go ahead and make this post even though Yuletide is coming...

But in the meantime, there has been some fic in the fandom posted!

Holding His Space (2503 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, 18th Century CE Frederician RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Relationships: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf/Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Characters: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Protectiveness, Domestic, Character Study
Summary:

Five times Fredersdorf has to stay behind - and one time Friedrich doesn't leave.

Using People (3392 words) by prinzsorgenfrei
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great/Hans Hermann von Katte
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Hans Hermann von Katte
Additional Tags: Fluff, Idiots in Love, reading plays aloud while gazing into each others eyes
Summary:

Friedrich had started to talk to him because he had thought of him as a bit of a ditz.
And now here he was. Here he was months later, bundled up in this very same man’s blankets with a cup of hot coffee in front of him, its scent mixing with that of Katte’s French perfume.
_
Fluffy One Shot about one traitorous Crown Prince and the sycophant he accidentally fell for.

Comments

Valmont the Frederician Fan

[selenak]

Because contemporary references in unrelated works are always nifty: I‘ve been following Dangerous Liasons Daily, and in the letter wherein the Vicome de Valmont reports to the Marquise de Merteuil that he finally scored with pious Madame de Tourvel, he writes re: the tactics he employed to seduce her:

Thus far, my lovely friend, you will find, I believe, a purity of method which will give you pleasure, and you will see that I departed in nothing from the true principles of that war which, as we have often remarked, so strongly resembles the real war. Judge me then as though I had been Frederic or Turenne². I had forced to combat an enemy who would do nothing but temporise; by scientific manoeuvres I obtained the choice of positions and of the field; I was able to inspire the enemy with confidence, in order the more easily to catch up with him in his retreat; I was able to add terror to this feeling before the fight was engaged; I left nothing to chance, except in my consideration of a great advantage in case of success, and the certainty of resources in case of defeat; in short, I did not engage until I had an assured retreat, by which I could cover and preserve all that I had previously conquered. That is, I believe, all that one can do: but I am afraid, at present, lest, like Hannibal, I may be enervated by the delights of Capua.

I dare say Fritz would object to the „leaving nothing to chance“ bit as a description of his tactics but might feel gratified a contemporary novelist lists him with Turenne and Hannibal as a grand strategist in war. Note that the Vicomte expects the Marquise to know who „Frederic“ was just as well a the other two.

Incidentally, Les Liasons Dangereuses was published in 1782, so he might have read the book (after all, it wasn‘t German literature), though I don‘t recall a reference to it anywhere.

Re: Valmont the Frederician Fan

[luzula]

Wow, military metaphors for heterosexual relationships and sex is truly The Most 18th century. I have even seen "weapon" and "wound" as euphemisms/flowery language for penis and vagina in 18th c porn...

Re: Valmont the Frederician Fan

[selenak]

Quite. Though to be fair, Chloderos de Laclos (the author), as opposed to his character, is using them with irony, since Valmont's "Victory" is a hollow one, since he's getting played himself by a woman this entire time without noticing it...

Re: Valmont the Frederician Fan

[cahn]

Hahahaha, that's... sort of disturbing, actually. Wow!

Re: Valmont the Frederician Fan

[mildred_of_midgard]

Heee! That *is* nifty!

might feel gratified a contemporary novelist lists him with Turenne and Hannibal as a grand strategist in war.

I daresay!

Note that the Vicomte expects the Marquise to know who „Frederic“ was just as well a the other two.

Fritz: After Rossbach, they better know who I am! 1782 is peak "Old Fritz" celebrity years, too.

Me: I see you've managed the "impress the French" of Voltaire's "impress the French, mock the French, beat the French," Fritz.

Incidentally, Les Liasons Dangereuses was published in 1782, so he might have read the book (after all, it wasn‘t German literature)

Lol.

though I don‘t recall a reference to it anywhere.

Neither do I. Searching though his Trier correspondence just gets me this beautiful line from 1745, i.e. the War of the Austrian Succession, at a point when Saxony is allied with Austria:

je déclarais qu'aussitôt que la cour de Dresde renoncerait aux liaisons dangereuses qu'elle avait prises contre moi

Dangerous for whom, Fritz? For them? Definitely. That's why they'll remain neutral next time, only that won't do them any good either.

Re: Valmont the Frederician Fan

[cahn]

That is awesome :D

And ooh, I recently saw something fun in a non-contemporary work. I was flipping through the G.K. Chesterton Father Brown mystery stories that I have, and in the story "The Doom of the Darnaways," Father Brown looks in a picture of a library and sees there's a book called The History of Pope Joan and another that starts The Religion of Frederick. The first didn't mean much to me, but of course with the second I thought, "Could that mean our Fritz? But he wasn't..."

Mes amies, it was a plot point! The bookshelf was filled with book titles of things that didn't exist, and signaled that it wasn't a real bookshelf -- it was a hidden staircase :) (The story itself is a bit odd -- I guess it is supposed to be a parody of Victorian melodrama, but I'm not sure I recommend it, but that was a fun plot point for me.)

Re: Valmont the Frederician Fan

[selenak]

Pope Joan: the infamous story about a woman who disguised herself as a monk, rose in the church hierarchy and was elected Pope, then was outed via pregnancy. Considered to be apocryphal and the product of Protestant pamphleteering during the Reformation, which is certainly how Chesterton saw it, but much beloved and declared to be authentic by modern novelists.

Mes amies, it was a plot point! The bookshelf was filled with book titles of things that didn't exist, and signaled that it wasn't a real bookshelf -- it was a hidden staircase

Now that is very nifty! I never got around to reading the Father Brown stories, though I did read some of Chesterton‘s non fiction.

Pope Joan

[mildred_of_midgard]

I seem to recall the first mentions of Pope Joan date already from the late Middle Ages, but yeah, definitely used by the Church's opponents.

but much beloved and declared to be authentic by modern novelists.

LOL, this is so true--one of those modern novels was very formative in my teenage years. It was the book that made me want to study Classics, and started me down that path!

It's not a *great* book, either for historical accuracy or literary quality, I don't go around reccing it to people, but it speaks to my id, and I still enjoy rereading it. Teenage me found the arguments for Pope Joan's existence in the afterword very convincing; older me, who actually understands something about historical methodology, dug into the matter a bit deeper and concluded that it's too bad it didn't happen that way. :P (I mean, not the point about her being stoned, but the part where she disguised herself as a man and became famous for her great learning.)

Re: Pope Joan

[cahn]

...which book? :P (I don't imagine I'll read it, but I'm just curious, as if it was a popular book, odds are I might have heard of it.)

Re: Pope Joan

[mildred_of_midgard]

The rather unimaginatively-titled Pope Joan, by Donna Woolfolk Cross. I still <333 Joan, intellectually starved child who wanted to study so much she disguised herself as a man in 9th century Europe.

Re: Pope Joan

[selenak]

It was a ragingly successful novel in Germany - just titled "Die Päpstin" - for which there is a German musical, cahn, here is one of the more popular songs (inevitably Johanna and her true love - other than learning - who later will get her pregnant at the worst time imaginable) from it. So popular that there's even a German sequel by someone else who asked for a license to write one and got it.

Re: Pope Joan

[mildred_of_midgard]

Ooh, a sequel in a language I can (sort of) read! Can you give me the title and author?

Though Joan dies at the end, so if there's a sequel, it better be about Arnalda. Aww, now I want Arnalda fanfic. (Perhaps predictably, given my tastes, she also disguises herself as a man, and I adore her mentor/mentee relationship with Joan. I could get behind a sequel about her.)

Re: Pope Joan

[selenak]

Das Erbe der Päpstin, by Helga Glaesener. Bear in mind I haven‘t read it, so don‘t know whether it‘s good.

Re: Pope Joan

[mildred_of_midgard]

Understood. Thank you!

Re: Valmont the Frederician Fan

[cahn]

but much beloved and declared to be authentic by modern novelists.

LOL! I can see why. I would want this to be true too!

Re: Valmont the Frederician Fan

[mildred_of_midgard]

That's awesome! Fritz's ghost would be super chuffed over this. :D (Probably also cracking misogynistic quips at Pope Joan, but hey, maybe this ghostly existence comes with social justice discourse to go with its badly needed anger management therapy. *cough* FW)