18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 36

[cahn]

Starting a couple of comments earlier than usual to mention there are a couple of new salon fics! These probably both need canon knowledge.

felis ficlets on siblings!

Siblings (541 words) by felisnocturna
Chapters: 2/2
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Characters: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great, Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758), Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Summary:

Three Fills for the 2022 Three Sentence Ficathon.

Chapter One: Protective Action / Babysitting at Rheinsberg (Frederick/Fredersdorf, William+Henry+Ferdinand)
Chapter Two: Here Be Lions (Wilhelmine)

Unsent Letters fic by me:

Letters for a Dead King (1981 words) by raspberryhunter
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great & Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen (1726-1802)
Characters: Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Additional Tags: Epistolary, Love/Hate, Talking To Dead People, Canonical Character Death, Dysfunctional Family
Summary:

Just because one's king and brother is dead doesn't mean one has to stop writing to him.

Comments

I. General and AW

[selenak]

That was a terrific find, Royal Detective! And here's my write up:

General terms: both the AW correspondence by Volz and the Ferdinand correspondence by Dr. Friedrich Meusel are published as write ups the way I do it, i.e. they summarize the letters and present the occasional excerpt, sometimes short, sometimes longer. The AW write up has several letters from Lehndorff to AW, two to Knyphausen, and one from Amalie to Lehndorff attached. (BTW the last one is very charming and shows Amalie from an endearing side.) Meusel in the Ferdinand write up promises to also publish the Heinrich/Lehndorff correspondence "in as much as it is of historical interest" (read: no sexting!) Which I really hope he did, because otherwise it's a victim of WW2. (At least that's my conclusion from Schmidt-Lötzen mentioning about 800 Heinrich letters in the preface to Lehndorff, Volume 1, but the archive at Leipzig hardly listing any.) So that's your next mission, detective - did Meusel publish on the Lehndorff-Heinrich letters?

The attitudes of Volz and Meusel towards their subjects are somewhat different. Volz doesn't doubt that AW was in the wrong and entirely to blame for 1757, and calls him, Heinrich, Ferdinand, Henckel von Donnersmarck and friends "The party of sulkers" ("Partei der Mißvergnügten") critisizing Fritz. Meusel otoh, says that while undoubtedly the attitude of historians that the Frederician reign was glorious and brought only blessings to "our people" is the only correct one, maybe, just maybe, there's another side, the human side, and maybe the distance between Fritz and his three brothers who were close to each other and enstrangement between Heinrich and Fritz in particular wasn't all Heinrich's fault. Both Volz and Meusel think Heinrich was the only brother of Fritz who was a worthy historical personality, and that AW and Ferdinand were on an identical mediocre level in terms of their abilities, but also nice. Volz things Lehndorff put more an effort into trying to be fair to Fritz than Fritz' brothers did, while Meusel thinks Lehndorff's attempt to love Fritz as a loyal subject only to find himself appalled by the Fritzian personality time and again proves that maybe the fault wasn't only on the brothers' parts.

Now, new information from the invidual essays.

AW-Lehndorff:

Finally an explanation for the "Hulla" nickname for AW which shows up in Jochen Klepper's Der Vater and some older biographies. I've been wondering whether this was an attempt to translate "Guille" into German, or something someone made up at some point. ACcording to Volz, it's what Ulrike is on written record for calling him, and hails from a play, the "Komödie vom Hanswurst Hulla", which was one of the plays he staged when he was entertainment boss of Berlin in the 1740s and early 1750s.

Yet another version of the Glasow tale! According to AW, whom Lehndorff must have asked about it, the following happened:

Mr. Glasow has forged several seals; he's opened letters adressed to the King, and which he answered; he was about to steal 100 000 Taler and to run off with them. He has reported all the news he could get his hands on to the Saxons, and when he was searched, two pocket pistols were discovered in his possession, which according to himself he only carried with him for the fun of it. Other than that, he didn't do anything.

After the battle of Prague - where, remember, Heinrich distinguished himself, while AW was present but because he was stationed with James Keith on the other side of the river wasn't participating in the fighting - AW writes to Lehndorff:

I applaud the people of Berlin that they have recognized the news of the enemy's defeat. I wish that fewer families had reason to mourn; but that is the fate of war. The wounded are even more unfortunate, for they are still suffering. I had no part in this great event; if Browne had positioned himself on the other side of the city, I might have done my part like the the others. Wait and see, as the saying goes. Fortunately, Heinrich has escaped all the dangers; he has dared as much as our bravest infanterists, which says everything. I only saw the dangers from afar.

(What you can already tell here is that AW - despite not having been keen on this war - had drunk the kool aid that comes with being raised by FW in a society where military glory is the ultimate virtue, and you're not a man if you don't have it.)

After the great disaster - where as I said Volz is entirely Team Fritz and cites Koser as the proof - happened, AW wants to know from Lehndorff what people think:

Does one condemn or approve of my actions? I don't want either, I want to be heard, and that the generals who were under my command get heard. In short, I remain without an interrogation or a trial.

Volz thinks it's nuts AW wanted to publish a defense with quotes of his correspondence with Fritz. (cahn, reminder, he did write it, but it wasn't published until many years later and then condemned as an attack on Fritz. Ziebura quotes extensively from it, though.) -volz also chides AW for not mentioning the glorious victory of Rossbach other than by saying Heinrich got wounded in it, but not seriously, due to having worn such warm clothing.

Then depression sets in, and AW writes to Lehndorff:

As long as the King's glorious reign will last, I regard myself as deleted from the ranks of those who work to enhance his military reputation. I may have missed the oppportunity to at least create a foundation of a reputation of my own, but maybe fate wanted to be kind to me by taking away the chances for me to demonstrate my ignorance and entire lack of abilities. Whichever the case may be, I live here in a quiet retreat and like it; sometimes I still think of the shame to be banished and useless in such a way, but as I am still convinced it is not my fault, I shall accept it.

The Lehndorff letters which are attached contain his attempt at a pep talk in which he makes a very Lehndorffian over the top comparison to the Iliad and says everyone is considering AW as Achilles and hopes for his return to the battlefield which will surely bring the turnaround in this war. Which, oh, Lehndorff. I don't think even Heinrich and Ferdinand saw AW as Achilles. (Though they may have seen Fritz as Agamemnon.)

Mostly, Lehndorff provides AW with entertaining gossip about the court affairs, and sometimes sad news like this (when Heinrich is recovering from the Rossbach wound and thus not with Fritz) at the start of January 1758:

Our Queen is very hurt about not having received a courier due to events at Breslau while one had been sent to Prince Heinrich. We all claim that it must have been a misunderstanding, as the King would surely not have neglected paying this courtesy, and thus we try our best as good courtiers to sweeten the awful medicine. Princess Amalie has visited the Christmas fair. And that is all the remarkable things I have to report.

Since Lehndorff temporary loses his estate once East Prussia is occupied by the Russians, and hears details about said occupation, he's not in a Russia-friendly mood:

The Russians order prayers in all our churches in Prussia for their fat Empress and for the godawful spawn of the Grandduke, as if we were her subjects.

(Lehndorff, it's not Peter's or Paul's fault that your estate is occupied. One can blame them for many things, but not this.)

Now for the Amalie letter, which is dated November 11th 1762, i.e. shortly after her birthday:

I have kept you till the last. This is the eigth thank you letter which I write about the same subject, and I'll admit to you that I'm lacking the wit to say anything new about such an thankless subject as my birthday presents. In a word, dear Count, I want to present my entire thinaks to you for your attention and for the flattering and charming things you told me in your letter. What little merit I possess has just grown two inches when I read your praise of me; but I have immediately turned it down again. Now I find that I'm today not worth more than I was yesterday, and tomorrow I might be worth less than today, so that after all discounts I don't present much of an investment in totem.
I do sympathize with you regarding the boredom you feel about the lack of distraction, about the eternal company of Baron Müller, and the enamored President von Voß. (...)
I myself continue to find Berlin more charming and agreeable, and I'm amusing myself immensely, without love factoring in. I organize balls and concerts for my nephew, and pick the best and sweetest society for him which I don't have to put much effort into finding. So he's content and hopes that it lasts forever. Mr. Mitchell has arrived, and Prince Repnin is expected daily; he'll bring his wife with him, who is supposed to be as beautiful as Venus; I doubt, though, that she will surpass my niece. Next week you will have bread thanks to fat Wedell, the kind called Schobbrot which one used to feed the dogs with. If I am to throw a supper for Prince Repnin and the other ministers, you may imagine the face of these people and the embarassment I shall feel inside for treating them so badly.
I ask you to great la Cocceji from me a thousand times and to tell her that her older brother is here an dhas been made Lieutenant Colonel. Adieu, Count, forgive my scribblings and the lack of order in m yletter, and think now and then of us who aren't present. Amalie.

Re: I. General and AW

[mildred_of_midgard]

Super fast write-up, omg!

Meusel thinks Lehndorff's attempt to love Fritz as a loyal subject only to find himself appalled by the Fritzian personality time and again proves that maybe the fault wasn't only on the brothers' parts.

Meusel is brave for 1905!

Finally an explanation for the "Hulla" nickname for AW

Ahh, I love when our questions get answered!

"Komödie vom Hanswurst Hulla"

For cahn, I looked up Hanswurst in Wikipedia and found this:

Hanswurst or Hans Wurst (German for "Johnny Sausage") was a popular coarse-comic figure of German-speaking impromptu comedy. He is "a half doltish, half cunning, partly stupid, partly knowing, enterprising and cowardly, self indulgent and merry fellow, who, in accordance with circumstances, accentuated one or other of these characteristics.

Some interesting (to me) observations on the development:

Through the 16th and 17th centuries, he was a buffoon character in rural carnival theaters and touring companies...In 1712, Joseph Anton Stranitzky developed and popularized the role of Hanswurst. The theater historian Otto Rommel saw this as the beginning of the so-called Viennese popular theater. Stranitzky's Hanswurst wore the garb of a peasant from Salzburg, with a wide-brimmed hat on. His humor was often sexual and scatological. The character found numerous imitators.

In the "Hanswurst dispute" of the 1730s, the scholar Johann Christoph Gottsched, in addition to the actress Friederike Caroline Neuber, strove to banish the buffoon from the German-speaking stage, to improve the quality of German comedies and to raise their social status, holding a public "banishing" of Hanswurst. This met with resistance, especially in Vienna. However, the staged banishment has generally been regarded as an emblematic moment in German theater history for the transition from popular, improvised, so-called Stegreiftheater to a modern bourgeois literary mode.

In the later 18th century Hanswurst was out of fashion and was only used in the puppet theater.

Mr. Glasow has forged several seals; he's opened letters adressed to the King, and which he answered; he was about to steal 100 000 Taler and to run off with them. He has reported all the news he could get his hands on to the Saxons, and when he was searched, two pocket pistols were discovered in his possession, which according to himself he only carried with him for the fun of it. Other than that, he didn't do anything.

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

LOL, wow. I guess AW is saying the poisoning accusations are unfounded?

everyone is considering AW as Achilles and hopes for his return to the battlefield which will surely bring the turnaround in this war. Which, oh, Lehndorff. I don't think even Heinrich and Ferdinand saw AW as Achilles.

!!!

Oh, Lehndorff. Well, hyperbole it may be, but I see you were trying to comfort him. <33

Now I find that I'm today not worth more than I was yesterday, and tomorrow I might be worth less than today, so that after all discounts I don't present much of an investment in totem.

Lol, Amalie! She had a way with words sometimes.

Re: I. General and AW

[selenak]

The Hanswurst banishing was indeed a big thing in German theatre history. cahn, this Gottsched was the one who tried to convince Fritz of the worthiness of the German language (with a hilarious Nicolai anecdote to describe their encounter), and whose wife was a publishing Émilie fan. (Who also liked MT.) You can bet Hanswurt plays were exactly what FW had liked and SD hadn't wanted her children to watch, though.


Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

LOL, wow. I guess AW is saying the poisoning accusations are unfounded?

Probably. The essay doesn't include Lehndorff's letter to AW about this, but that would have been an obvious question to ask given the rumors making the round in Berlin, and AW had the advantage of having been there and in the know. (As this predates Kolin and his command in the aftermath.) I note AW does not mention a fellow accomplice, unlike Büsching and Second Chamber Hussar in their versions.

More Lehndorff findings!

[mildred_of_midgard]

So that's your next mission, detective - did Meusel publish on the Lehndorff-Heinrich letters?

I haven't been able to find them! And this makes me think that maybe he didn't and that they don't survive, because that collection includes a lot of Lehndorff material from various sources (might be worth a look through for you), and yet I don't see any Heinrich letters.

I did find, among other things:

- Volz publishing 3 pages' worth of letters from FW2 to Lehndorff. Will upload if anyone wants them.

- A letter in the above collection from Lehndorff to Immanual Kant. (cahn, remember that Lehndorff's estate is in East Prussia, and Kant lived in Königsberg.) They apparently met, and Lehndorff was a fan.

- A description of FW's last days, death, and funeral, apparently by Lehndorff. (I didn't realize we had stuff from him from 1740, but the editor says, "On the basis of other individual diary sheets, it can be assumed that Lehndorff did not only start writing in 1750.")

- A review by Meusel of volume 2 of Lehndorff's diary. Surprisingly unfavorable! He says the repetition is too monotonous and should have been cut, the malicious gossip should have been cut, Schmidt misspells names, like "Borcke" as "Borck", Schmidt fails to verify the citations, Schmidt mistranslates French expressions, etc. In conclusion, Meusel says the reader will be grateful to Lehndorff for the useful information he provides when not gossiping, irritated with Schmidt for not doing a better job editing.

So I guess historical accuracy requires fratboy talk, but not "This person I don't like is terrible and everyone I know agrees with me" judgments. (Meusel actually says, "Would 'historical research' have suffered a loss if that kind of anonymous complaint had been cut?" Yes, Meusel, it tells us something about Lehndorff.)

Wait! Further detective work reveals more Lehndorff material! Later volumes of the Masovia series include the post-retirement diaries:
- 1775-1780
- 1781-1784
- 1785
- 1786-1787

I think the last two are new to us! Sadly, I think that's where it ends; there are only two more volumes of Masovia, going up to 1928, and I think that's when Schmidt died?

Okay, I will leave hunting for Lafayette in fall 1785 to the great selenak, but I had to check Fritz's death quickly. Lehndorff does mention it, but nothing about the fate of the dogs. Which is to be expected, since he's living in East Prussia. (His account of the death also differs slightly from the more firsthand ones we've seen, which is also to be expected.)

Also, geographical and nomenclature discoveries:

- Lötzen is the old German name of a town in Poland, today called Giżycko.
- It's about 10 km from Steinort, modern day Sztynort, home of the Lehndorff estate. This explains why our Schmidt is so interested in Lehndorff.
- Masovia/Mazovia is the name of a historical region in Poland. It borders Masuria, the historical region in which Sztynort and and Giżycko are located. This explains why the Masovia journal has so very much on the Lehndorff family, and is where the diaries were published.
- Schmidt's name is sometimes given as "Schmidt" (usually when referring to him as a person), "Schmidt in Lötzen", "Schmidt, Lötzen", and "Schmidt--Lötzen" (usually when referring to him as an author).
- Other authors' names in the volume are also sometimes given as "Name--Lötzen".

That clears that up!

I eagerly await gossipy sensationalism from 1785-1787. :D

Re: More Lehndorff findings!

[selenak]

I've downloaded the diaries I haven't read yet first (since the ones until and including 1784 were published as volume IV) and immediately have to share this Lehndorff entry on the occasion of Heinrich's birthday in 1785, on January 18th:

18. Januar: Gesegnet seist Du mir! Unter Deinem Lichte wurde mein Prinz Heinrich geboren!

Practice your German, and bear in mind Lehndorff is writing this well over thirty years after falling in love with the guy...

(Also, there's an earlier January entry where Fritz first is a jerk to various nobles in public - including a "oh, you're the one who was with Heinrich in Russia? can't have learned much, then!" remark - and then Lehndorff's kids want to see the King, and Lehndorff's son Heinrich gets to meet him, and Lehndorff frets and fears Fritz is going to be a jerk again, but no, he's kind and nice to the boy and Lehndorff decides he loves his King after all.)

Re: More Lehndorff findings!

[mildred_of_midgard]

I've downloaded the diaries I haven't read yet first (since the ones until and including 1784 were published as volume IV)

Yep, I was delighted to see the ones you'd asked for were digitized after all, then new ones to boot! Though I'm not sure if what we have constitutes the complete volume IV? 1775 seems to be summarized in half a page, and your write-up made it seem a little more fleshed out.

Anyway, new Lehndorff material! Christmas has come early! *rubs hands*

(I remember that back in 2019, Lehndorff really did come for Christmas. :D <3)

[Hit post too soon...]

Lehndorff frets and fears Fritz is going to be a jerk again, but no, he's kind and nice to the boy and Lehndorff decides he loves his King after all.)

Oh, Fritz. This is the thing everyone notices about him, even Lafayette. He's charming! He's abusive! He's charming! A kingdom of contradictions, as the title of Schieder's biography goes.

Also: Oh, Lehndorff.

Re: More Lehndorff findings!

[cahn]

<33 I've now read the longer posts (will probably not have time to reply to them tonight -- this has been really great, though! You are the best and most royal of readers! ) so I know more details, but also


18. Januar: Gesegnet seist Du mir! Unter Deinem Lichte wurde mein Prinz Heinrich geboren!

I got the second sentence but not the first! (I only know "Selig"...) And was kind of confused until I loaded it into Google translate, but unlike mildred I did figure out he was talking to the day :D Oh Lehndorff. You are something else.

Re: More Lehndorff findings!

[mildred_of_midgard]

My wife also figured it out the moment I told her! It's just me, apparently.

Re: I. General and AW

[cahn]

It really is Christmas in July! :DDDDDD

Both Volz and Meusel think Heinrich was the only brother of Fritz who was a worthy historical personality, and that AW and Ferdinand were on an identical mediocre level in terms of their abilities, but also nice.

This just made me laugh. Sorry AW and Ferdinand, at least you got to be nice!

(What you can already tell here is that AW - despite not having been keen on this war - had drunk the kool aid that comes with being raised by FW in a society where military glory is the ultimate virtue, and you're not a man if you don't have it.)

:(

([personal profile] cahn, reminder, he did write it, but it wasn't published until many years later and then condemned as an attack on Fritz. Ziebura quotes extensively from it, though.)

Ah, right, thank you!

As long as the King's glorious reign will last, I regard myself as deleted from the ranks of those who work to enhance his military reputation.

:((((( This whole excerpt is just heartbreaking.

The Lehndorff letters which are attached contain his attempt at a pep talk in which he makes a very Lehndorffian over the top comparison to the Iliad and says everyone is considering AW as Achilles and hopes for his return to the battlefield which will surely bring the turnaround in this war. Which, oh, Lehndorff.

Achilles! I concur: Oh Lehndorff!

We all claim that it must have been a misunderstanding, as the King would surely not have neglected paying this courtesy, and thus we try our best as good courtiers to sweeten the awful medicine.

Poor EC too!

Now I find that I'm today not worth more than I was yesterday, and tomorrow I might be worth less than today, so that after all discounts I don't present much of an investment in totem.

Amalie really is just so awesome, isn't she :D <3

Re: I. General and AW

[mildred_of_midgard]

We all claim that it must have been a misunderstanding, as the King would surely not have neglected paying this courtesy, and thus we try our best as good courtiers to sweeten the awful medicine.

Poor EC too!

I got sidetracked with detective work and forgot to comment: EC was probably not much comforted, given that after Soor, when her brother was killed, she wrote to one of her surviving brothers that she's heard not a syllable from Fritz, and she can't believe how heartless he is. Then he writes a "It's not my fault he's dead!" letter, that makes me think AW was like, "Fritz? Are you going to send your wife condolences about the guy who died in your service?" making Fritz get all defensive.

Re: I. General and AW

[cahn]

Ohhhh right, this was the Other Terrible Consolation letter! Heh, I can totally see AW doing that. (I mean, I can definitely see Fritz getting all defensive about it, that's a given.)

Re: I. General and AW

[mildred_of_midgard]

I think AW's possible involvement was actually Selena's bit of detective work, but she sold me on her conclusions!