cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

cahn

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, yay! This is on my list to reread, I was just holding off until I'd had a chance to reread what Machiavelli actually said, not just in Il Principe but in the Discorsi, because...

it’s about as well versed in Machiavelli and Renaissance literature as De la Literature Alllemande is about German literature. (I mean, he did probably read a French translation of Il Principe, but he clearly has no idea as to who Machiavelli was and what his goals were and is reacting to the pop culture image

This. It's a common failure mode for Machiavelli discussions. I would love to do a Renaissance Italy salon someday, but only after I have time to resume learning Italian. Trying to go heads-down on German in January!

With some obvious exceptions, but still, it’s a far more consistent line of thought between Crown Prince and King than people were seeing later

This is what I've also heard (last time I read it was too long ago for me to have anything but hearsay to rely on). What I suspect is that people were reacting to the pop image of Machiavelli rather than doing a close reading of Fritz's Anti-Machiavel and a point-by-point comparison between the 1739 advertisement and the 1740s reality, so what they came away with was, "Fritz said he would never do anything dishonest!"

he’s like Descartes to Newton.

(Selena: Yep, that’s Voltaire’s correspondant, alright.)

Hahaha, yes, so it is.

(Selena: leaving aside he clearly hasn’t read Spinoza, it’s an interesting look at 1739’s Fritz state of religion. We’re definitely not yet in Deist territory. Possibly a lingering Wolff influence still?)

Possibly, but if we're talking specifically about disproving God (which, yes, he is operating on pop culture here again), I think a Deist would take objection to that as well.

Also, Mildred, guess whom “The Anti-Machiavell” names as the smartest, most competent contemporary monarch at the time of writing?

….drumroll…

Victor Amadeus!

Huh! I mean, on the one hand I'm not surprised that Fritz saw so much to praise in VA, since the comparisons between VA and Prussia under FW and Fritz have been drawn even by VA historians, and of course, I remind you of this VA quote:

Sovereigns are born for an active life, and not for an idle or contemplative existence. They must devote a constant, serious attention to matters of government.

which chimes well with our young author's

So, there are two kinds of Kings: Kings who actually WORK, AND ARE IN THE FIELD WITH THEIR MEN, and Kings who delegate all to their ministers. Obviously, the first type is the best type of King. It’s a King’s job to WORK WORK WORK

But like you, I'm surprised Fritz chose VA over the more famous monarchs. I wonder how contemporary is contemporary: VA died more recently than Charles, Peter, or Louis.

If he just faked being religious, he was a hypocrite to boot.

Yeah, and religious hypocrisy definitely never comes in handy when you're posing as the Protestant hero of Europe. *clears throat*

Basically, these kind of wars are lawsuits with weapons.

Thus confirming that CEO!Fritz totally ends up in a long, drawn-out lawsuit with HRE over a hostile takeover. ;)

Absolutely one should try negotiations first

MT: You mean like the extortion offer you gave me while your army was already in Silesia?

And you should never betray your allies, monarchs who do that just invite backstabbing themselves. You should have your allies’ back and spare yourself future wars.

Mme de Pompadour and Kaunitz: Not our fault if you didn't see it coming!

I’m writing this because I know none of my contemporaries is a Caligula or a Tiberius

Well...You're not wrong, I guess. Probably the most Machiavellian contemporary I can think of is only 10 years old when you started this, and you haven't married her off to the Russian heir yet, so that she can start a Russian golden age like a WOMAN. :P

As for your question about the Alexander anecdote, it's definitely not one of the better known ones. I admit to not having recognized it, but a quick google shows it's legit: Quintus Curtius (VII.viii.19).

But you, who boast that you are coming to attack robbers, are the robber of all the nations to which you have come. You have taken Lydia, you have seized Syria, you hold Persia you have the Bactriani in your power, you have aimed at India; already you are stretching your greedy and insatiable hands for our flocks.

Which I checked and was in the Sanssouci library by the end of Fritz's lifetime, so he may well have read it at Rheinsberg, or it could be a Voltaire beta suggestion.

From:

selenak

What I suspect is that people were reacting to the pop image of Machiavelli rather than doing a close reading of Fritz's Anti-Machiavel and a point-by-point comparison between the 1739 advertisement and the 1740s reality, so what they came away with was, "Fritz said he would never do anything dishonest!"

*nods* Yes. Incidentally, since I found the Anti-Machiavell far more readable, err, listenable than Fritz' poetry, I'm now wondering whether I should give his other prose works a shot, the various histories of which I know only excerpts quoted in biographies.

Yeah, and religious hypocrisy definitely never comes in handy when you're posing as the Protestant hero of Europe. *clears throat*

LOL, too true. And I would say Ferdinand of Aragon was in all likelihood more sincerely a Catholic than Fritz was ever a Protestant once his Wolff-studying phase was over.

Thank you for tracking down the Alexander anecdote! Quintus Curtius, huh. This reminds me of the essay about Fritz of Wales & Hervey which points out that in the 18th Century, Quintus Curtius was the most popular source for Alexander stories, and that this is where the image of Hephaistion as the good favourite (i.e. the competent, selflessly working for monarch and the monarchy one, "he, too, is Alexander") as opposed to greedy bad favourites which Hervey, naming himself Hephaistion, wants to evoke comes from.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I'm now wondering whether I should give his other prose works a shot, the various histories of which I know only excerpts quoted in biographies.

I vote yes! Like Voltaire's prose, I'm planning on giving Fritz's a try when I finally move on to French and need texts to practice on. At least one of Fritz's essays on education looks interesting from the excerpts I've seen. And I'm avoiding both our antiheroes' poetry. :P

And I would say Ferdinand of Aragon was in all likelihood more sincerely a Catholic than Fritz was ever a Protestant once his Wolff-studying phase was over.

Without having read anything by or about Ferdinand, I would say yes just from my pop culture image of him!

This reminds me of the essay about Fritz of Wales & Hervey which points out that in the 18th Century, Quintus Curtius was the most popular source for Alexander stories

Oh, huh, I'd forgotten that. I should do a close reading of Quintus Curtius at some point, then. I'm pretty good about recognizing Plutarch allusions, not so much Quintus Curtius. Ironically, I had just acquired a copy and was starting to read it, back when I was doing 4th century Greek history and oratory, when salon started. :P

From:

cahn

Probably the most Machiavellian contemporary I can think of is only 10 years old when you started this, and you haven't married her off to the Russian heir yet, so that she can start a Russian golden age like a WOMAN. :P

Ha! (Also, btw, I'm going through Massie's Peter -- Peter is 22 right now -- and kind of taken aback at the state of Russian women at the time. And I thought 18th-century Western Europe was bad! Go Catherine, is what I'm saying :P and i think Massie says explicitly that it helped a ton that she wasn't Russian. But also, go Sophia whom I had a more than sneaking sympathy for :PP )

Edited Date: 2022-01-11 06:18 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

and kind of taken aback at the state of Russian women at the time. And I thought 18th-century Western Europe was bad!

Right?

But also, go Sophia whom I had a more than sneaking sympathy for :PP

Yes! Massie got me interested (she was only a name to me before), and I would love to ~~have someone else~~ read more about her.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, I'm delighted that you're reading Massie! Is he not entertaining?

Re Catherine, though, I should point out that she's 100 years after Sophia, and that the position of noble and royal women in Russia had changed significantly. Before Sophia, there had been no women publicly wielding power. Before Catherine, there had been not only Sophia, but Catherine I, Anna Ivanovna, Anna Leopoldovna (as regent), and Elizaveta. There was a huge amount of social change, especially at the top, in those hundred years. Not that the odds weren't still against Catherine and it wasn't impressive that she managed what she did! But Sophia really lived in a different world.