18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

[cahn]

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

Comments

Re: The Anti-Machiavell

[cahn]

As what it claims to be, a critique of Niccolo Machiavelli’s Il Principe, it’s about as well versed in Machiavelli and Renaissance literature as De la Literature Alllemande is about German literature

heeee!

Victor Amadeus!

! Well, mildred, thanks for your primer on this guy, so I actually knew who he was :P

To make it clear just how overrated Machiavelli is, I’ll say that as a political theorist seen from today’s political theorists, like, for example, me, he’s like Descartes to Newton.
(Selena: Yep, that’s Voltaire’s correspondant, alright.)

Ha!

So, there are two kinds of Kings: Kings who actually WORK, AND ARE IN THE FIELD WITH THEIR MEN, and Kings who delegate all to their ministers. Obviously, the first type is the best type of King. It’s a King’s job to WORK WORK WORK, and be a first servant to the state. (Yes, that phrase.)

This is fascinating! I see what you mean about being able to see the through-line with Fritz's thinking :P

Envoys are smooth and wily and hand out lots of money to work for their respective governments as spies on the King’s court they’re sent to. Never trust an envoy, though they’re fun to hang out with.

HAHAHAHA I can't imagine where that came from :P Though I guess I hadn't thought super hard about how this would have affected him, before now. (Not that you guys weren't thinking about it :P just not me)

Because sometimes, you see these dark clouds on the horizon, like for example if there is this really really large realm in Europe, and you just know they intend you no good.

HAHAHAHAHA
well okay then

Kings should be made to visit wounded soldiers and hospitals and widows regularly, so they never forget what wars do to their people, as they so easily can because they usually live in such a removed sphere from misery.

Huh, did... Fritz do this at all once he became king?

Earlier in the text, I say that monarchs must never let themselves be ruled solely by their emotions, like A WOMAN.

Heh. There's the Fritz we know and... um , mock? :)

Re: The Anti-Machiavell

[selenak]

Huh, did... Fritz do this at all once he became king?

As far as I recall, he did visit the injured while on campaign, and also he did take care to thave the best doctors available around, but I don't recall any widow and orphans visiting in peace time. The one who founded the famous Berlin hospital Charité which is still working as well as various orphanages was FW, not Fritz. Given that Heinrich personally supervising the transport of the injured from the field post battle of Prague (and a few other times later) was treated as unusual by contemporary reports, I take it Fritz didn't do that, but then he was the supreme commander (with correspondingly more to do), and Heinrich was not.

Given all Mildred has told us, young Fritz naming Victor Amadeus as the smartest and most competent monarch of their era should have caused a few alarm bells to ring right there in 1739. Mind you, it's interesting he doesn't name either Peter the Great or Charles XII, whom you might expect him to.

HAHAHAHA I can't imagine where that came from :P Though I guess I hadn't thought super hard about how this would have affected him, before now. (Not that you guys weren't thinking about it :P just not me)

Yes, he had a good memory. I'm also reminded of how Elizabeth I. (of England, not Russia) never forgot when she was Queen of how both the envoys and an increasing number of aristocrats had courted her during her sister Mary's reign, and outright said this was why she'd never name a successor out loud. (She said this to the envoy of Venice who included it in his resport home, which is how we know.)

Back to Fritz: the simile "courtiers are just like women with their make-up, wearing identical masks and you never know what they are really thinking" is also pretty telling. (And not quite as misogynistic as it sounds, though certainly some, but keep in mind 18th century make up was way, way, stronger than what we think of as make-up today, though it was worn by plenty of male aristocrats, too, Fritz!)

Because sometimes, you see these dark clouds on the horizon, like for example if there is this really really large realm in Europe, and you just know they intend you no good.

HAHAHAHAHA
well okay then

This is one of those passages - along with the "lawsuit via military means" one - that I'm pretty sure he added at the last minute for obvious reasons. :) (I don't think we know for sure, for lack of manuscripts to compare - that there were several stages we know through the Voltaire and Fritz correspondence about it.

And I really would like to know whether the Alexander story is original Fritz (and if so, in which work he came across it) or an Voltaire beta reading suggestion. I certainly haven't heard it before, but then I'm not so firm on Alexander as Mildred.

Re: The Anti-Machiavell

[mildred_of_midgard]

As far as I recall, he did visit the injured while on campaign, and also he did take care to thave the best doctors available around, but I don't recall any widow and orphans visiting in peace time.

Yeah, same. He might have decided that this didn't apply to him, because

as they so easily can because they usually live in such a removed sphere from misery.

Re: The Anti-Machiavell

[mildred_of_midgard]

Victor Amadeus!

! Well, mildred, thanks for your primer on this guy, so I actually knew who he was :P

Happy to accidentally anticipate Selena's write-up with my own write-up! I certainly did not know who he was when I last read the Anti-Machiavel, some 20+ years ago. It is wonderful to be turning more and more names into people with personalities as we progress through salon.