cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

cahn

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

Nice, thanks for the write-up!

(Though I'm biased, since I begrudge she's describing the Wilhelmine & MT lunch from the perspective of the backstage servants who don't even describe who said what but argue about the implications.)

I am indignant on your behalf!

Wilhelmine to call him Gustl - which is wrong in several levels, firstly because Wihelm was the one of his first names he used, and secondly Gustl is a southern German/Austrian short form of August

Guille! Guille!

Now AW was a lousy husband, but one thing he definitely is not guilty of is describing Luise as heartless.

Hmm, yes, this seems inaccurate. Zimperliese, maybe. (I know that was Fritz, but I bet he agreed.) But not heartless!

(though we get the psychological explanation that in a childhood and youth like hers where self worth was systematically destroyed by both parents in different ways and without the rendezvous-with-fame option, "I am the daughter/sister of a King and you are not" is part of what she clings to), and her disgust and fear at the sight of poverty (which includes disgust at the sight of poor people).

I remember you proposing this, back when we talked about Letti and Sonsine, since Letti gets the "She's just a low-class good-for-nothing!" explanation of her awfulness, and Sonsine the "She comes from a good family with a long history of service, so naturally she was wonderful" explanation. And your speculation (very plausible, imo), was that "At least I'm the daughter of a king, you Italian lowlife" was Wilhelmine's self-defense during the years of brutal abuse at Letti's hands.

If she wants to see FW alive and take her leave of him, complete with final death bed conciliation, she has to go to Berlin and abandon the idea of seeing her opera debut. She's torn, but then says "No, Papa, you will never take my music from me again"

Wow. I can see why the author went for this in fiction, but as I recall, irl it went like this:

Fritz: Dad's about to kick the bucket. For real this time.

W: Omg. I need to see him one last time before he dies.

Fritz: What? No, trust me, that's a terrible idea. You've just forgotten how bad it is since you're safely away in Bayreuth.

W: But he's the only father I've got, and this is my last chance!

Fritz: I can't stop you, strictly speaking, but seriously. Bad idea. Don't do it.

W, bitterly, in her memoirs: So I didn't go, since nobody wanted me, and I never got to say goodbye.

Fritz: *no doubt repressed resentment in the opposite direction*

There is no comparable SD exorcism, since SD as a character doesn't show up anymore after the marriage, but fair enough, I don't think there was one in Wilhelmine's actual life, and it would have to be invented from stretch.

Semiramis? Even I put that in my fic! (Thanks to you.)

Katte! I'm gay, I realise this now. Which I realized after Orzelska infected me with syphilis, thus curing me of heterosexuality forever, which is something else I confide to you in this scene. But back to Katte!

Uh. I hope you didn't give Katte your syphilis. Because that's exactly where my mind immediately went.

Now, on the one hand, I could believe that Fritz and Katte covered for Wilhelmine in their interrogations and Wilhelmine herself would stick to the official version in her memoirs, but on the other, I think that removes both Fritz' subconscious resentment that Wilhelmine didn't encourage him in his escape plans and Wilhelmine's subconscious resentment he was willing to leave her to FW's tender mercies which did influence their relationship thereafter.

Hmm. Narratively speaking, I agree about removing the subconscious resentment. Historically...yeah, given what we know of Fritz's various escape plans (people seem to forget how many there were, it wasn't like a war campaign planned out in advance, it was just a stressed teenager looking frantically for the first opportunity and snatching at whatever straws he could find, which is why it changed from month to month), most of them don't have much room for Wilhelmine. Like the plan to escape from Zeithain.

That said, everyone would totally have covered for her, I'd buy that. And she did give him jewelry, which he then sold and later denied she had any knowledge of what he used it for, as I recall.

This slowly changes, plus Superville shows up, flirting with Wilhelmine from the get go, who is also attracted to him.

Huh. Well, he was pretty intelligent, articulate, and strong-willed, as I recall. Fritz liked talking to him, right? I could see him being the kind of person Wilhelmine might go for. But is he trash-talking Fritz in front of her? Maybe in the 1740s she'd go for that, but late 1730s? :P

As for same-sex attraction, especially half aware...could be. Like you said, historically she didn't seem to have much of a sex drive ("Fidelity's not much of a virtue if there's no temptation"), and maybe there was a latent lesbianism there. But Wilhelmine as strongly sexed bisexual...idk. Not seeing the historical evidence.

3.) Sonsine's motives for supporting the English Marriage project as long as she did....she doesn't want to end up in the backwater provinces of Bayreuth, she's not as fixated as SD but she has been hoping to be rewarded for years of live in the FW household by moving to Britain and be the confidante of the future Queen of England, and it takes some time her her to abandon this dream. Sounds plausible, no?

Yep. Especially since as I recall, the memoirs go like this:

Fritz: *tries to escape*

FW: *shows up in Berlin*

SD: *lines up all the kids to plead for his life*

FW: *beats Wilhelmine brutally*

Wilhelmine: *lying semi-conscious on the floor with her bloody head on Sonsine's lap*

Wilhelmine, weak whisper: Dad, I'll marry anyone you want!

Sonsine: *covers Wilhelmine's mouth*

That is some dedication to the English marriages right there, Sonsine. So yeah, whether or not it literally happened like this, I think we can safely say that Wilhelmine remembered Sonsine as a strong supporter of the English marriage project.

Therefore, you should treat your husband exactly like you treat your brother, and must live with him like brother and sister! Shouldn't be too difficult for you, should it? And then, after a few months, when the marriage proposal from England finally arrives, we can annull the hell out of this arrangement. So: brother/sister is your watchword!

This is straight out of the memoirs, right? I feel like I remember this.

I don't recall any "(any)war is evil" statement from her in reality.

My memory is hazy, but the first thing that comes to mind is the letters to Voltaire that were published as an appendix to the Kindle edition of Wilhelmine's memoirs. Now, I can't skim German and don't have 30 minutes to read line by line to see what she says and doesn't say, but...you can skim German!

From:

selenak

Guille! Guille!

Quite. I mean, with a main character called Wilhelmine whose father is referred to by the text as Friedrich Wilhelm consistently, I get why a novelist might not want to use the name "Wilhelm" for the younger brother who only shows up in two scenes, but there is a canonical nickname to use. (Reminds me of fanfic making up nicknames, truly.)

(Meanwhile, the novel has Voltaire call her "Soeur Guillaumette", so it's not like Cornelia Naumann didn't look up the French forms for Wilhelm. What I suspect is that having decided to limit the non-Fritz siblings to the absolute minimum of appearances, and making AW and Heinrich one character, she didn't bother to read up on them, hence no awareness of either AW's canonical nickname from his siblings or Luise's personality. (The one scene with adult AW doesn't include him canonically mediating between Wilhelmine and Fritz despite being set during the enstrangement years, it's just there to signal Fritz is behaving increasingly FW like towards the younger sibs.) In the one AW childhood scene (where he's 4 years old Heinrich in the big FW homecoming scene), Naumann does use a canonical nickname FW uses towards him - "Hulla" - but it's very evident where she has that one from, which is Jochen Keppel's novel Der Vater.

Hmm, yes, this seems inaccurate. Zimperliese, maybe. (I know that was Fritz, but I bet he agreed.) But not heartless!

Yes, agreed that calling her a Zimperliese would have been likely. But the absolutely last thing either Fritz or AW would cmoplain about re: the Braunschweig sisters is their lack of feeling!

Fritz advising Wilhelmine not to travel to Berlin for a deathbed goodbye from FW: this is actually in the novel, but as an aside, i.e. BayreuthFriedrich when Wilhelmine is still wavering whether or not to go brings it up and speculates Fritz might have wanted to prevent FW in a sentimental deathbed mode changing his last will at the last second and leaving Wilhelmine more stuff. This he says not in a Fritz bashing manner but by ruefully acknowledging he and Wilhelmine were afraid of his own father doing a very similar thing before dying and that's why he's glad his own sister didn't make it to the deathbed.

Anyway, agreed that Wilhelmine deciding on staying in Bayreuth to stage her opera instead of one last attempt with Dad is the novelist's reordering of events and motivations so Wilhelmine can have a proper FW exorcism.

Semiramis: true enough in terms of her likely using this to deal with her SD issues, but in terms of a novel, I can see why the author didn't go for it - it would feel repetitive, not like another emotional climax, -, and in terms of rl, I think it was venting rather than exorcism. Not least because while the plot of Argenore was constructed by Wilhelmine herself in a way that includes clear parallels to her real life miseries, "Semiramis"' plot was written by Voltaire and doesn't parallel anything with SD. Staging an opera featuring matricide for your mother's birthday still feels lie a pointed dig, but while Argenore and FW have clearly things in common, Semiramis and SD do not, so, like I said - more venting than exorcism. Not to mention that as opposed to FW, where she and Fritz were on the same page emotionally, SD's sons showed a "best of mothers" attitude towards her, and of the sisters, Amalie was the only one likely to agree out loud with Wihelmine if they ever spoke about her, and because of the age gap and the long distance, Wilhelmine saw adult Amalie only during her two or three visits to Berlin. (I loved that you gave the two a chance to talk about her in your AU, though!) So I don't think in rl, there was ever a chance for a true SD exorcism.

But is he trash-talking Fritz in front of her? Maybe in the 1740s she'd go for that, but late 1730s? :P

The novel puts the scene where he's trash talking Fritz after they've already become lovers, not before, i.e. in the 1740s, not the 1730s, but it lets him say stuff which I think the memoirs let him say in the late 1730s.

Oh, and this will amuse you:

W and BayreuthFriedrich are in Rheinsberg in later 1740, meeting Voltaire:

BayreuthFriedrich: Can it be your brother is up to something? There are all those mysterious messengers. I think he could be preparing war.

Wilhelmine: I hope not, I hate war, and he used to, too, but otoh... I know! He's totally going to get Jülich and Berg!

Though Cornelia Naumann sticks to the Prussian perspective in terms of Silesia as much as Nancy Goldstone does to the Austrian one in her MT & daughters book, i.e. Fritz is "reconquering" Silesia from MT in Silesia 1, and "preventing Austrian agression" in Silesia 2. The 7 years War, otoh, is seen as Fritz' fault for not making any diplomatic efforts and pissing everyone off in between, and for invading Saxony, of course. Now like I said, Wilhelmine was majorly invested in trying to get a peace with France for her brother in her last two years of life, but at least according to her letters (by which I don't just mean the ones to Fritz but the ones to Voltaire), she did blame MT and Elisaveta, not Fritz, for the 7 Years War. (Alas the only letters of hers to AW which I know written during the 7 Years War are the ones Volz quotes and they deal with AW's last year of life and the issue of his disgrace. Ziebura says the entire correspondence with AW is still unspublished, which is a shame because it possibly could offer a different look - since AW was very much against this war when it started.

(As an example for a compare and contrast of how Wilhelmine expresses herself towards each brother on the same matter:

To Fritz: Only you are perfect, can't you forgive AW for not being? He does have a good heart and didn't act from malice, I'm sure you'll agree!
To AW: I'm sure he didn't mean it like that when saying what he did to you. He was angry, you know how he is, but look, he's the King, and one of you has to say sorry first!)

But Wilhelmine as strongly sexed bisexual...idk. Not seeing the historical evidence.

Same here. Also: given how quickly she got pregnant after her marriage, and the general fertility in the family, I think if she had a regular sex life (with the Margrave or a male lover), chances are she would have gotten pregnant more than once. (Which she didn't. I don't recall any miscarriages after the birth of her daughter, either.) Naumann uses the fact that Superville was a doctor for letting him use 18th century style contraception methods plus non vagina-penetrating types of sex to prevent this, admittedly, but BayreuthFriedrich really was in need of a male heir, and if he and Wilhelmine had a vivid sex life (even one interrupted for a few years when the Marwitz crisis was at its peak), I think there would have been at least some false alarms or stillbirths. Yes, Wilhelmine had terrible health in general, but she already had in 1731/1732, and it didn't stop her from conceiving almost immediately.

In terms of same sex attraction, the novel lets "Minni" be the only one she has such semi-aware feelings for, which she doesn't act on (other than having a fervent friendship with her until she realises Minni loves power most of all), so I wouldn't say she's presented as a bisexual, more like a strongly sexed heterosexual with one (unrequited) gay exception. It's the strongly sexed part I don't buy in terms of history.

Otoh, I can see BayreuthFriedrich charming Wilhelmine during their engagement and first years of marriage, quite aside from how often or not they had sex. He was musical, spoke Parisian French (i.e. better French than Wilhelmine and Fritz do, which she realises with a shock once she has longer conversations with him) due to having actually been to Paris, had generally an amiable disposition but wasn't a complete pushover (see him refusing to play FW's drinking game), and later was a fond father to their kid - what's not to fall in love with if you're coming fresh from Wusterhausen hell?

This is straight out of the memoirs, right? I feel like I remember this.

The memoirs definitely have the "be like brother and sister with him" advice from SD, but the novel then bookends it with BayreuthFriedrich teaching Wilhelmine the joys of sex in the wedding night and her thinking, okay, definitely not brother and sister, and then transitioning to thinking, Alas, Federic, we're Artemis and Apollo no longer.

Uh. I hope you didn't give Katte your syphilis. Because that's exactly where my mind immediately went.

LOL. Mine, too. But also, "No Nauman wants to combine the traditional no homo/broken penis theory with the more current "yes, he was gay" attitude, with the result that Fritz is No Magic AU Albus Dumbledore? (One gay true love ending in trauma, then celibacy ever after.)

Oh, I forgot, the opening section with early 1731 Wihelmine has this:

Eversmann (FW's evil valet who is really evil and slimy in this novel): The King says you're allowed to take breakfeast outside of your rooms now, in the dining room, with an nice view. There'll be chocolate!

W (and Sonsine): Yay! Does this mean Dad is coming around?

Breakfast: Starts.

Courtyeard below window of dining room: gets filled with a few soldiers marching a sixteen years old girl there.

Whipping of sixteen years old girl: happens.

Eversmann: This is Doris Ritter, your highness, your brother's mistress. Getting whipped as a whore for her part in your brother's escape attempt. The King wants you to know this is exactly what he's going to do to Fräulein von Sonsfeld next if you don't agree to marrying whom he wants you to marry. Enjoy the rest of your breakfast.

Aside from freaking out on Sonsine's behalf, Wilhelmine also has the time to think there's no way Doris Ritter was Fritz' mistress, Fritz just hung out with her (and her Dad the choirmaster) because he loved that sense of a musical loving family he got there which he sure as hell could not get at home. When reading, I took her certainty that there was no Fritz/Doris sex (or even interest in same on Fritz' part) also to mean she knew already he was gay, but then later in the scene where Fritz comes out to her, this is presented as news (albeit news about which she has had some suspicions due to the intensity of the Fritz/Katte relationship. (The novel's Wilhelmine has no feelings, either positive or negative, about Peter and his Katte preceding relationship with Fritz. Though Peter is name checked as part of the escape attempt, but as happens more than once in Frederician fiction, he's merged with his brother Not!Robert the page.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Fritz advising Wilhelmine not to travel to Berlin for a deathbed goodbye from FW: this is actually in the novel, but as an aside, i.e. BayreuthFriedrich when Wilhelmine is still wavering whether or not to go brings it up and speculates Fritz might have wanted to prevent FW in a sentimental deathbed mode changing his last will at the last second and leaving Wilhelmine more stuff.

Huh. This is interesting. What do you think about his real-life motives? Resenting Wilhelmine still loving their father this much, not wanting W on site to lead to accusations of influencing him when he becomes king, not wanting the will changed, some combination of the above...?

and in terms of rl, I think it was venting rather than exorcism

Fair!

Ziebura says the entire correspondence with AW is still unspublished, which is a shame because it possibly could offer a different look - since AW was very much against this war when it started.

Yeah, that would be interesting.

I think if she had a regular sex life (with the Margrave or a male lover), chances are she would have gotten pregnant more than once. (Which she didn't. I don't recall any miscarriages after the birth of her daughter, either.)

Huh. No chance that something happened during that birth that made her infertile? I've always thought something along those lines might be happening, or it could be a random fluke. One set of my grandparents had one kid pronto, tried and tried and were told they couldn't have any more, then knocked out 3 more miraculously in their 40s. Fertility is weird, and I'm always reluctant to draw conclusions about sex lives from fertility.

Given that the Margrave needed the male heir, and given how quickly she got pregnant after the marriage (

cahn, within about one 1 month), and given that they were on good terms, why wouldn't they keep having sex at least as often as they had it took to get her pregnant that first month, for at least the first few years? Fear of getting pregnant again?

see him refusing to play FW's drinking game

As I recall and what I'm seeing in the Christmas 1732 passage was that FW *did* make him play the drinking game, but Friedrich gave him some backtalk and didn't take the insults lying down.

The poor hereditary prince was at all these entertainments, and the king forced him to drink whether he would or not...."I could wish," said he aloud to Seckendorff, " that the king was not my father-in-law; I should soon show him that this ass of whom he speaks would make him hold a different sort of language, and that he is not a man to allow himself to be ill-used." At the same time he swallowed the contents of the bumper, which was almost as fatal to him as poison.

W (and Sonsine): Yay! Does this mean Dad is coming around?

OH NOES. Wow.

(The novel's Wilhelmine has no feelings, either positive or negative, about Peter and his Katte preceding relationship with Fritz. Though Peter is name checked as part of the escape attempt, but as happens more than once in Frederician fiction, he's merged with his brother Not!Robert the page.)

I can see why everyone simplifies the Keiths! Still, irl it's rather telling that Wilhelmine resents both of them, or at least reports doing so after the fact (i.e. when the escape attempt has failed and I'm sure part of her wants to blame them).

From:

cahn

I mean, I wasn't very keen on trying for another kid for a while after having the first, but that doesn't seem to really have been the thought process for most people, or at least husbands, in the 18th century :P

From:

felis

a canonical nickname FW uses towards him - "Hulla"

I hadn't heard that one before. Was that some strange form of Wilhelm or did it come from something else?

speculates Fritz might have wanted to prevent FW in a sentimental deathbed mode changing his last will at the last second and leaving Wilhelmine more stuff

Huh. That never ever occurred to me as a reason. Did FW even write an itemized will like Fritz did later, rewarding people who'd always shown him friendship? If so, do we have a copy somewhere? Because my impression was that he only wrote a more general one, and of course the political testament version.

But be that as it may, I really can't see Fritz begrudging Wilhelmine getting some more money or the like, on the contrary.

The reason he himself gives is of course that it would be detrimental for her health because the situation is so bad, which mostly means what it always did - FW is unpredictable and temperamental and the atmosphere at court is horrible, so he himself is always happy when he can be away for a couple of days as well. And I mean, he's not wrong that Wilhelmine had a horrible time with long-term consequences for her health the last time she was in Berlin. But I also think that he didn't want to deal with her possible grief and by extension his own mixed feelings over what was happening. I also think that maybe he wanted to be in control of the moment as much as possible. (AW got a detailed "what to do if Dad dies while I'm not there" letter.)

Eversmann: This is Doris Ritter, your highness, your brother's mistress. Getting whipped as a whore for her part in your brother's escape attempt. The King wants you to know this is exactly what he's going to do to Fräulein von Sonsfeld next if you don't agree to marrying whom he wants you to marry. Enjoy the rest of your breakfast.

You know, fictional or not, this is something I could see FW doing. Reminds me of SD's "I think you only told me that you want Fritz dead to see what I will say/do" letter.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

But I also think that he didn't want to deal with her possible grief and by extension his own mixed feelings over what was happening.

Yeah, makes sense. <3

I also think that maybe he wanted to be in control of the moment as much as possible.

Now this would be 100% in character!

Reminds me of SD's "I think you only told me that you want Fritz dead to see what I will say/do" letter.

Wait, remind me?

From:

felis

Second quote here: „You can be assured that I will not say anything and will not tell him that you wrote to me; if he knew that you hate him and wish him death, he would be in despair and it would kill him. He is already too ill. God take the thoughts you have against him, and you govern your heart. I believe you wrote to me against him out of malice, to see what I will answer you."