Historians: The British were extremely suspicious of VA and figured he was going to defect to Louis at any moment. But unjustly so, since he was surprisingly loyal!
Mildred: That is surprising.
Historians: As the war went on, VA was sounding out Louis to see if he could get good terms, but Louis didn't make any promises that VA both thought were worth defecting and thought he could trust Louis to actually carry out.
Mildred: That makes more sense!
Peace Talks #1
So then the peace talks at Utrecht start. Savoy, because of its strategic location and its willingness to be, shall we say, adaptable in who it allows to benefit from that strategic location, has been punching way above its weight in this. VA is expecting great things from the eventual peace treaty.
But, here the weakness of his state combined with his reputation as a double dealer come back to bite him. He's largely excluded from the talks. France, Britain, Spain, and the Netherlands decide his fate without him.
At one point, they propose that he can be King of Spain, and Philip V will be given Italian territory to compensate instead. Even Louis agrees to this, and Anne thinks it's a done deal, when Philip V, not being stupid, goes, "Why would I give up the kingdom where I'm securely established and my people have been loyal to me for ten years, for a place where they don't know me and who knows what will happen? Are you crazy?" and he refuses to leave Spain.
So there's a bit of an awkward moment where Anne's like, "Come to London, Savoyard envoy! Good news!" and by the time he shows up, she's like, "Shit. Plan B."
Plan B is informing VA as a fait accompli that he's been awarded Sicily, not Spain.
VA: But I don't want Sicily, it's far away and my family has no claims there! And we have no navy! If I can't have Spain, and that was always a longshot, I want Milan! I'm even willing to give up Savoy for it!
Mildred Digression to Clear Up Any Confusion
[Mildred: Wait, he's willing to give up his current duchy?
*after consulting some maps, like this one, and reading more closely some material skimmed earlier*
Mildred: Ah, no, what we call "Savoy" is made up of several different territories, like "Parma" being "Parma and Piacenza and Penne etc. etc." Which is why it's sometimes called Piedmont-Savoy. VA lives in the Principality of Piedmont, where Turin is; whereas Savoy is up in the Alps. It's culturally and linguistically distinct from Piedmont, and a strategic liability. Lombardy is in the lowlands and culturally more significant and easier to defend. It would be much easier to integrate the Duchy of Milan, or parts of it, into Piedmont than it is to hang on to Savoy (which keeps getting occupied during wars). And this is why instead of trying to keep track of territories yourself, cahn, you ask questions and receive maps. ;) (Reference to email thread for those who weren't in that discussion.)]
Peace Talks Continue
Britain: Sorry, Sicily! This is so we, Britain, who do have a navy, can contain Habsburg power in the Mediterranean without sparking off another war. Deal with it.
Now what's interesting is that I've seen at least two claims that Queen Anne wanted VA to be compensated with as much territory as possible, because she felt bad about his line being excluded from the British succession on the grounds of Catholicism. Why would she feel bad about that, you ask? And why does he have a claim? Same reason: his wife is Anne d'Orleans, daughter not just of gay Philippe but of unhappy first wife Henrietta Anne, who is the daughter of Charles I and thus in line for the throne. It turns out that Queen Anne of Britain, before she was Queen Anne and was just a small child, lived in France for a couple years, with her grandmother and then aunt. This meant she was raised with Anne d'Orleans in the nursery, and apparently they became close.
[The Anne biographer I'm reading points out that this meant that Anne (born 1665) was sent to live with her grandmother, who died in 1669, which resulted in her being sent to live with her aunt, who died in 1670, which resulted in her being sent back to England to live with her mother, who then died in 1671. This was a traumatic experience for little Anne.]
Regardless, emotional feelings between the Annes aside, there were also good geopolitical reasons to give VA Sicily.
Except that he didn't want it, wasn't popular there (appointed his own people, which caused resentment and nostalgia for the days of Spanish rule), and quickly lost it. Philip V, who, you may remember, did not accept the terms of Utrecht at all and kept trying to get back lost territory, invaded Sicily just a few years later (1718) where he was welcomed.
More War, More Peace Talks
But then Spain was ganged up on by Austria, France, Britain, and the Netherlands, who all wanted to enforce the peace terms, and Spain had to give it back. (They also didn't get Gibraltar.) This was called the War of the Quadruple Alliance, which I've brought up a few times. However, the powers that be decreed that Sicily and Naples would go to the Habsburgs, and VA would get Sardinia instead.
If VA thought Sicily was bad, Sardinia was worse. It didn't have commerce or industry, and the population consisted mostly of warlords doing what they wanted and sure as hell not acknowledging a foreign mainland king with pretensions to absolute rule. The reason he was given it was that it was nominally a kingdom because of things that had happened hundreds of years ago, and this allowed VA to keep calling himself king and be treated in Europe as a king. Which was one of the benefits Sicily had brought: as of 1713, he was king of Sicily. Now he's king of Sardinia.
Kingdom of Sardinia
This is why when Algarotti and later Peter Keith's son are sent to the kingdom of Sardinia to spy/negotiate, they go to Turin, which is not in Sardinia. It's just that much like Berlin not being in Prussia (modern-day Poland and Russia), the ruler uses the name of the territory where he can call himself king and applies it to everything he rules.
Oh, I should mention that VA and Cosimo III have been irritated with each other for decades, since they're both after royal titles, but a royal title means less to each of them if the other one gets it. Status is relative! Cosimo never managed to get a kingdom, but he was finally, finally allowed by the (Pope? Emperor?) to call himself "royal highness." Probably to put an end to the interminable correspondence, one of my books puts it.
So now it's 1720 and Victor Amadeus II is King of Sardinia and Duke of Savoy.
Victor Amadeus Defends Himself
At this point, VA would like to point out two things:
1) His allies, esp. Leopold, kept making him territorial promises in return for alliances and refusing to follow through.
2) Britain made a separate peace with France too!
So VA ends up with the Machiavellian reputation, but the powers he was working with were in a position to do the same things he did, but without it being called "side-switching," because they were powerful enough to do it without reference to anyone else. They just called it dictating terms, aka "tough luck, dude."
What fascinated me about this book was how I'd heard of VA's reputation, but reading about it from his perspective provided the geopolitical context to the point where I was like, "Well, of course he switched sides in [year]! He didn't want to be a satellite state!"
Lombardy is in the lowlands and culturally more significant and easier to defend.
It's also traditionally and to this day far richer. The Dukes of Milan (the Sforzas and Visconti, for those of us keeping score with the Italian Renaissance *g*) were always throwing their weight around for a reason, and rich Northern Italy complaining about having to finance poor Southern Italy is a thing to these day, often politically exploited. ("Lega Nord", anyone?) Being offered to trade Savoy for Milan/Lombary is like trading a bungalow for a villa.
Same reason: his wife is Anne d'Orleans, daughter not just of gay Philippe but of unhappy first wife Henrietta Anne, who is the daughter of Charles I and thus in line for the throne
cahn, Henriette Anne = Minette. .Also, Anne was her younger (surviving) daughter; her older daughter was the one who married Carlos II the Genetic Wonder, Last Habsburg in Spain, when Sophie & Sophie Charlotte were visiting Versailles. Meaning Victor Amadeus is the brother-in-law of the genetic wonder. Also the uncle by marriage to Franz Stephan, FS, since FS' mother is Liselotte' and Philippe the Gay's daughter Elisabeth who marries the Duke of Lorraine. And of course, this makes VA the brother-in-law to Philippe the Regent, Liselotte's son. Like most players, he's related to everyone!
The Anne biographer I'm reading points out that this meant that Anne (born 1665) was sent to live with her grandmother, who died in 1669, which resulted in her being sent to live with her aunt, who died in 1670, which resulted in her being sent back to England to live with her mother, who then died in 1671. This was a traumatic experience for little Anne.
No wonder she clung hard to childhood friend Sarah, future Sarah Churchill played by Rachel Weisz in The Favourite!
One of the Angelique novels which includes Minette's death actually has little Anne being present (as in, being in the same room, not just the same palace) when she gruesomely dies, but I don't know how historical that is.
It's also traditionally and to this day far richer.
As lowlands often are compared to mountainous regions: better soil for growing crops and easier transportation.
Being offered to trade Savoy for Milan/Lombary is like trading a bungalow for a villa.
Which is why VA never found any takers.
One of the Angelique novels which includes Minette's death actually has little Anne being present (as in, being in the same room, not just the same palace) when she gruesomely dies, but I don't know how historical that is.
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cahn
Victor Amadeus II: Why is he always switching sides? Part 2
Date: 2022-01-03 12:42 am (UTC)Historians: The British were extremely suspicious of VA and figured he was going to defect to Louis at any moment. But unjustly so, since he was surprisingly loyal!
Mildred: That is surprising.
Historians: As the war went on, VA was sounding out Louis to see if he could get good terms, but Louis didn't make any promises that VA both thought were worth defecting and thought he could trust Louis to actually carry out.
Mildred: That makes more sense!
Peace Talks #1
So then the peace talks at Utrecht start. Savoy, because of its strategic location and its willingness to be, shall we say, adaptable in who it allows to benefit from that strategic location, has been punching way above its weight in this. VA is expecting great things from the eventual peace treaty.
But, here the weakness of his state combined with his reputation as a double dealer come back to bite him. He's largely excluded from the talks. France, Britain, Spain, and the Netherlands decide his fate without him.
At one point, they propose that he can be King of Spain, and Philip V will be given Italian territory to compensate instead. Even Louis agrees to this, and Anne thinks it's a done deal, when Philip V, not being stupid, goes, "Why would I give up the kingdom where I'm securely established and my people have been loyal to me for ten years, for a place where they don't know me and who knows what will happen? Are you crazy?" and he refuses to leave Spain.
So there's a bit of an awkward moment where Anne's like, "Come to London, Savoyard envoy! Good news!" and by the time he shows up, she's like, "Shit. Plan B."
Plan B is informing VA as a fait accompli that he's been awarded Sicily, not Spain.
VA: But I don't want Sicily, it's far away and my family has no claims there! And we have no navy! If I can't have Spain, and that was always a longshot, I want Milan! I'm even willing to give up Savoy for it!
Mildred Digression to Clear Up Any Confusion
[Mildred: Wait, he's willing to give up his current duchy?
*after consulting some maps, like this one, and reading more closely some material skimmed earlier*
Mildred: Ah, no, what we call "Savoy" is made up of several different territories, like "Parma" being "Parma and Piacenza and Penne etc. etc." Which is why it's sometimes called Piedmont-Savoy. VA lives in the Principality of Piedmont, where Turin is; whereas Savoy is up in the Alps. It's culturally and linguistically distinct from Piedmont, and a strategic liability. Lombardy is in the lowlands and culturally more significant and easier to defend. It would be much easier to integrate the Duchy of Milan, or parts of it, into Piedmont than it is to hang on to Savoy (which keeps getting occupied during wars). And this is why instead of trying to keep track of territories yourself,
Peace Talks Continue
Britain: Sorry, Sicily! This is so we, Britain, who do have a navy, can contain Habsburg power in the Mediterranean without sparking off another war. Deal with it.
Now what's interesting is that I've seen at least two claims that Queen Anne wanted VA to be compensated with as much territory as possible, because she felt bad about his line being excluded from the British succession on the grounds of Catholicism. Why would she feel bad about that, you ask? And why does he have a claim? Same reason: his wife is Anne d'Orleans, daughter not just of gay Philippe but of unhappy first wife Henrietta Anne, who is the daughter of Charles I and thus in line for the throne. It turns out that Queen Anne of Britain, before she was Queen Anne and was just a small child, lived in France for a couple years, with her grandmother and then aunt. This meant she was raised with Anne d'Orleans in the nursery, and apparently they became close.
[The Anne biographer I'm reading points out that this meant that Anne (born 1665) was sent to live with her grandmother, who died in 1669, which resulted in her being sent to live with her aunt, who died in 1670, which resulted in her being sent back to England to live with her mother, who then died in 1671. This was a traumatic experience for little Anne.]
Regardless, emotional feelings between the Annes aside, there were also good geopolitical reasons to give VA Sicily.
Except that he didn't want it, wasn't popular there (appointed his own people, which caused resentment and nostalgia for the days of Spanish rule), and quickly lost it. Philip V, who, you may remember, did not accept the terms of Utrecht at all and kept trying to get back lost territory, invaded Sicily just a few years later (1718) where he was welcomed.
More War, More Peace Talks
But then Spain was ganged up on by Austria, France, Britain, and the Netherlands, who all wanted to enforce the peace terms, and Spain had to give it back. (They also didn't get Gibraltar.) This was called the War of the Quadruple Alliance, which I've brought up a few times. However, the powers that be decreed that Sicily and Naples would go to the Habsburgs, and VA would get Sardinia instead.
If VA thought Sicily was bad, Sardinia was worse. It didn't have commerce or industry, and the population consisted mostly of warlords doing what they wanted and sure as hell not acknowledging a foreign mainland king with pretensions to absolute rule. The reason he was given it was that it was nominally a kingdom because of things that had happened hundreds of years ago, and this allowed VA to keep calling himself king and be treated in Europe as a king. Which was one of the benefits Sicily had brought: as of 1713, he was king of Sicily. Now he's king of Sardinia.
Kingdom of Sardinia
This is why when Algarotti and later Peter Keith's son are sent to the kingdom of Sardinia to spy/negotiate, they go to Turin, which is not in Sardinia. It's just that much like Berlin not being in Prussia (modern-day Poland and Russia), the ruler uses the name of the territory where he can call himself king and applies it to everything he rules.
Oh, I should mention that VA and Cosimo III have been irritated with each other for decades, since they're both after royal titles, but a royal title means less to each of them if the other one gets it. Status is relative! Cosimo never managed to get a kingdom, but he was finally, finally allowed by the (Pope? Emperor?) to call himself "royal highness." Probably to put an end to the interminable correspondence, one of my books puts it.
So now it's 1720 and Victor Amadeus II is King of Sardinia and Duke of Savoy.
Victor Amadeus Defends Himself
At this point, VA would like to point out two things:
1) His allies, esp. Leopold, kept making him territorial promises in return for alliances and refusing to follow through.
2) Britain made a separate peace with France too!
So VA ends up with the Machiavellian reputation, but the powers he was working with were in a position to do the same things he did, but without it being called "side-switching," because they were powerful enough to do it without reference to anyone else. They just called it dictating terms, aka "tough luck, dude."
What fascinated me about this book was how I'd heard of VA's reputation, but reading about it from his perspective provided the geopolitical context to the point where I was like, "Well, of course he switched sides in [year]! He didn't want to be a satellite state!"
Re: Victor Amadeus II: Why is he always switching sides? Part 2
Date: 2022-01-03 07:34 am (UTC)It's also traditionally and to this day far richer. The Dukes of Milan (the Sforzas and Visconti, for those of us keeping score with the Italian Renaissance *g*) were always throwing their weight around for a reason, and rich Northern Italy complaining about having to finance poor Southern Italy is a thing to these day, often politically exploited. ("Lega Nord", anyone?) Being offered to trade Savoy for Milan/Lombary is like trading a bungalow for a villa.
Same reason: his wife is Anne d'Orleans, daughter not just of gay Philippe but of unhappy first wife Henrietta Anne, who is the daughter of Charles I and thus in line for the throne
The Anne biographer I'm reading points out that this meant that Anne (born 1665) was sent to live with her grandmother, who died in 1669, which resulted in her being sent to live with her aunt, who died in 1670, which resulted in her being sent back to England to live with her mother, who then died in 1671. This was a traumatic experience for little Anne.
No wonder she clung hard to childhood friend Sarah, future Sarah Churchill played by Rachel Weisz in The Favourite!
One of the Angelique novels which includes Minette's death actually has little Anne being present (as in, being in the same room, not just the same palace) when she gruesomely dies, but I don't know how historical that is.
Re: Victor Amadeus II: Why is he always switching sides? Part 2
Date: 2022-01-04 12:00 am (UTC)As lowlands often are compared to mountainous regions: better soil for growing crops and easier transportation.
Being offered to trade Savoy for Milan/Lombary is like trading a bungalow for a villa.
Which is why VA never found any takers.
One of the Angelique novels which includes Minette's death actually has little Anne being present (as in, being in the same room, not just the same palace) when she gruesomely dies, but I don't know how historical that is.
Nor I.