18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

[cahn]

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

Comments

1730 Trending Topics: Gibraltar

[mildred_of_midgard]

Spain: Excuse me, Great Britain! Have you looked at a MAP lately? Gibraltar is obviously part of SPAIN! [Mildred: I trust everyone knows where Gibraltar is?]

Great Britain: Except we conquered it during the War of the Spanish Succession when we were trying to get our guy (future Holy Roman Emperor Charles VI and future MT's dad) on the throne of Spain. That didn't work out, but you never managed to recapture Gibraltar, so, uh, we're keeping it.

Spain: You can't own Spanish territory! We will go to war over this!

Great Britain: You already went to war over this, like, three times, and lost. You signed a treaty just last year. Sorry! Cut your losses and worry about something else.

Spain: But your king G1 said he would give it back, way back in 1721! Philip V has a letter he keeps in a chest under his bed, to which he has the only key.

Great Britain: Yeah, so, about that G1 letter. If you read it closely, it says, "I will endeavor to convince Parliament to give Gibraltar back," not, "We will definitely give it back."

Now, our leading ministers, just like G1 and G2, have been more than willing to give it back. Because yes, we have looked at a map, and Gibraltar's not doing us a whole lot of good. We'd be happy to give it back. Taking Gibraltar was a means to an end, and we've had to give up on that end. But every time we make noises in that direction, the voting public that thinks we fought a war to get that tiny bit of land gets really upset. So that's why we'll still be hanging onto it in 2022.

Spain: I have no idea what you're talking about, *air quotes* "convince" "Parliament." When a king writes a letter saying he'll do something, I expect him to do it!

Great Britain: You mean like give up his claim to the throne of France, like Philip V promised two or three times in writing? And then was putting together an invasion the moment Louis XV got smallpox in late 1728?

Spain: Yeah, yeah, well, Louis not only recovered but went on to father a son in 1729, so we've finally had to give up on that idea. We're now focused on other projects. That's ancient history, let it go.

Re: 1730 Trending Topics: Gibraltar

[selenak]

Did not know about G1's letter, but am utterly unsurprised the reason why the Brits kept Gibraltar in the 18th Century is the same why they're still hanging on to it post Brexit. I first learned about the fact Gibraltar is British territory via a Beatles song lyric, to be precise, The Ballad of John and Yoko:

Peter Brown called to say 'You can make it OK, you can get married in Gibraltar near Spain'

(Which John and Yoko then did.)

Re: 1730 Trending Topics: Gibraltar

[cahn]

Ha! Even geographically-challenged me knows where Gibraltar is :P (although for some reason apparently my fingers want to type it with an extra "l" why fingers)

If you read it closely, it says, "I will endeavor to convince Parliament to give Gibraltar back," not, "We will definitely give it back."

WELP

But hold on, I don't get it, knowing where Gibraltar is means that I know it's kind of... far away, how is that going to be at all useful --

Because yes, we have looked at a map, and Gibraltar's not doing us a whole lot of good.

Hee!

So that's why we'll still be hanging onto it in 2022.

...I actually did not know that was a thing!

Re: 1730 Trending Topics: Gibraltar

[mildred_of_midgard]

So that's why we'll still be hanging onto it in 2022.

...I actually did not know that was a thing!

Oh, yes! The very tip of Spain is still owned by the UK. The only wild monkey population on the European continent is the Barbary macaques living on the Rock of Gibraltar, and, per Wikipedia:

A popular belief holds that as long as Gibraltar Barbary macaques exist on Gibraltar, the territory will remain under British rule. In 1942 (during World War II), after the population dwindled to just seven monkeys, UK Prime Minister Winston Churchill ordered their numbers be replenished immediately from forest fragments in both Morocco and Algeria because of this traditional belief.

:P

Wikipedia also tells me that Gibraltar has refused in referenda to be reunited with Spain. And that they're still trying to work out the whole Brexit thing.

But hold on, I don't get it, knowing where Gibraltar is means that I know it's kind of... far away, how is that going to be at all useful --

Well, the thing is, the Strait of Gibraltar is very narrow, which means if you control land bordering the strait, you can, if you have a very good navy, make it much harder for other countries to enter and leave the Mediterranean. So it's not totally useless to a major naval power like Great Britain. But it's also not of such high value in the 1720s that the kings and ministers think it's worth keeping.

Mind you, they're very, very interested in having a naval base in the Mediterranean, but they also conquered Menorca during the Spanish Succession. So if they can keep that, they're willing to give up Gibraltar. And the Spanish, while they didn't like losing Menorca, aren't nearly as emotionally invested in it in the 1720s as in Gibraltar. So they could have worked something out. But the British public got very upset at the thought of giving back territory conquered in the recent war--territory used mainly as a beachhead for launching an invasion of Spain to put a different king on the throne--so here we are today.

Conversely, Spain, also once a major naval power, still controls the bit of Gibraltar on the African coast opposite the bit that the British control in Spain, and the Moroccans are not happy with Spain about that.