cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 32

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:) Still talking about Charles XII of Sweden / the Great Northern War and the Stuarts and the Jacobites, among other things!

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

Wonderful, thank you! It is really good to have primary sources on both the envoy report and on the Wikipedia claim that Lovenorn knew about the plans and didn't tell FW.

"I had believed him (Lovenorn) to be my good friend, but not anymore

Yeah, I got to the part in Kloosterhuis where FW likes Katte, too. FW, maybe people would be your friends more if you would stop being horrible to your son!

Crown Prince Friedrich had indeed confided his escape plans to the Danish envoy Lovenorn, but hadn't found agreement from the later. Lovenorn had done everything to dissuade the Prince from his intent hand had tried to influence Katte to the same purpose.

I don't blame these people, for obvious reasons, but the longer the list of people who tried to talk Fritz into staying gets, the more I feel sorry for him. And I understand why the plan was so hard to keep secret; he had a hell of a time finding anyone who would support him in it.

Footnote to this: "Rekreviditiv" - I have no idea how to translate this

Looks like that's a typo for "Rekreditiv", which Duden tells me is "written confirmation of receipt of a diplomatic letter of recall by the head of state," which makes perfect sense in context.

I'm still confused about the chronology of the recall:
October 12: Frederik IV dies.
?: Lovenorn is recalled.
Nov 5, 1730: Lovenorn is writing envoy reports on Katte's execution.
Nov 6, 1730: Lovenorn is appointed Danish chief war secretary as his post-ambassador career.
December 26: Written confirmation of receipt of a diplomatic letter of recall by the head of state.

??

While Lovenorn could successfully convince the King of his innocence in later conversations, but due to the unpleasant situation at the Prussian court he was glad, when an order from Christian VI., who had ascended to the Danish throne in October 1730, commanded him back to Copenhagen.

Source Footnote: Letter dated September 10th, 1730.)

I'm also confused about this chronology: which part of that is September 10? Just the part where he convinced FW of his innocence in later conversations? Not the part where he was glad to get recalled in later months, surely!

Fritz, c'est le Prince,

Wait, I just processed this, because I'm so used to us calling him Fritz. But of course, the person who called him Fritz the most was FW. FW said Fritz, and Borck added "c'est le Prince"? Wow.

Anyway, this is awesome, and I'm delighted that you acquired the book and have reported back.

From:

selenak

FW, maybe people would be your friends more if you would stop being horrible to your son!

While this would certainly heighten the number of potential friends, G2 would like to point out that he knew FW was a bad 'un before either of them had any wretched sons named Fritz! Gundling would like to add that he was totally willing to be FW's friend after F1's death, and look where it got him. Old Dessauer, otoh, is firmly convinced that being FW's friend was an art only he truly mastered, because they were soul mates, and the others were unworthy.

I don't blame these people, for obvious reasons, but the longer the list of people who tried to talk Fritz into staying gets, the more I feel sorry for him. And I understand why the plan was so hard to keep secret; he had a hell of a time finding anyone who would support him in it.

I know, it really looks like Peter was potentially the only one not going "no, you must not!" when Fritz voiced the idea to him. BTW, note that Lovenorn, at least in his report, says that Katte didn't listen to his trying to influence him to influence the Prince. If Lovenorn isn't lying for his monarch's or FW's benefit by throwing Katte under the bus, given that Katte and Fritz both named him to FW, it supports your theory that Katte presented his opposition to Fritz' plans as somewhat firmer than it was (and who can blame him) during his interrogation.

Recall schedule: I can't tell you more than I did translate. The footnote to the letter comes at the end of the sentence, i.e. "...nach Kopenhagen zurückberief."

ETA: I liked "c'est le Prince" after "Fritz", too, as one of these touches where you see there are two people writing the letter.

Borck: At least I didn't call him "Junior"!

Edited Date: 2021-11-26 05:33 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

While this would certainly heighten the number of potential friends, G2 would like to point out that he knew FW was a bad 'un before either of them had any wretched sons named Fritz! Gundling would like to add that he was totally willing to be FW's friend after F1's death, and look where it got him. Old Dessauer, otoh, is firmly convinced that being FW's friend was an art only he truly mastered, because they were soul mates, and the others were unworthy.

ROFL!

Truly, Clement's fatal error was accusing Old Dessauer of being part of the Evil Catholic Conspiracy.

I know, it really looks like Peter was potentially the only one not going "no, you must not!" when Fritz voiced the idea to him.

Peter: But was he grateful? He was not!

Fritz: In hindsight, maybe the 50 other people had a point about the consequences...

If Lovenorn isn't lying for his monarch's or FW's benefit by throwing Katte under the bus, given that Katte and Fritz both named him to FW, it supports your theory that Katte presented his opposition to Fritz' plans as somewhat firmer than it was (and who can blame him) during his interrogation.

I am not the only one who came up with this; I've read it elsewhere. I almost think it goes without saying. Since, you know, Katte also testified that if Fritz had left, Katte would have left too. If your *only* goal is to talk him out of it and tie his hands, I don't think you have backup plans to risk your life deserting.

But thanks to the supposed plot to marry Fritz off to an Austrian archduchess and force him to convert, we do know that Katte put up at least initial resistance.

Recall schedule: I can't tell you more than I did translate.

I figured, I was more thinking out loud. I wish the author had been more clear. Don't they know that Katte's execution was the most important thing that ever happened to a Danish ambassador! :P

Borck: At least I didn't call him "Junior"!

Hee!

From:

cahn

FW, maybe people would be your friends more if you would stop being horrible to your son!

FW: Mildred, you too?? I feel betrayed by you!

I don't blame these people, for obvious reasons, but the longer the list of people who tried to talk Fritz into staying gets, the more I feel sorry for him. And I understand why the plan was so hard to keep secret; he had a hell of a time finding anyone who would support him in it.

Oh, yeah, that's a good point.