cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 32

You're viewing

cahn's journal
Create a Dreamwidth Account Learn More

Reload page in style: site light

:) Still talking about Charles XII of Sweden / the Great Northern War and the Stuarts and the Jacobites, among other things!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

selenak

Indeed, though it helped that everyone knew her marriage had been broken down and that Monmouth had explicitly confirmed she had nothing to do with his rebellion or indeed his earlier Whig relations. Moreover, Anna married a second time. Her surviving children by Monmouth (they had six all in all, but three had died as babies, so by the time he got executed, on that goodbye occasion, it was three already) had been brought to the tower not just to say goodbye to Dad but in case there would be any further resurrections in their name. When this didn't happen, they could go home with Anna. Originally, their father's treason would have barred them from inheriting, but Parliament in 1690 (= William and Mary time) passed an act rehabilitating the heirs of the Duke of Monmouth, which meant they could inherit. Both the sons went into politics and parliament themselves. The surviving daughter, alas, did not survive out of her childhood, dying in the same year her father did. Anna died in 1731, i.e. the year after Fritz' escape attempt.

Alice Lisle: an account of her execution (which does, btw, include a loyalty declaration and prayer for the King on her part), and here are some photos of the locations of her story today, and yet another report on the story, this one with poetry and Macauly quotes.

Aww, those are really sweet stories about James and William and Mary, especially the one about how William went dancing with James and Mary :D

The three even went iceskating together, which only happened when he was with them. (Neither of them was able to, but he taught them.) Incidentally, James II. of course kept insisting that William had to kick Monmouth out, and once Charles had died and James was King, he could back that up with military and trade threats, so William reluctantly followed through. Which is another example of James II. creating his own dangers,because it's at least questionable whether Monmouth, as long as he had a safe harbor with William and Mary, would have gone through with that final rebellion (especially considering that his two cousins weren't just Protestant but legitimate and had the better claim).

From:

cahn

Oh man, Alice Lisle :(((((( Heh, I like her declaring that she'd been "instructed in the belief, that if Popery should return to this nation, it would be a great judgement." :( At least Ketch seems to have done his job with her with one blow :( (Man, I hope that all those people that took multiple blows fainted immediately, because omg.) Macaulay, you are right and you should say it :P

he three even went iceskating together, which only happened when he was with them. (Neither of them was able to, but he taught them.)

AW. This is too cute. I am a fan of the OT3!

Which is another example of James II. creating his own dangers,because it's at least questionable whether Monmouth, as long as he had a safe harbor with William and Mary, would have gone through with that final rebellion (especially considering that his two cousins weren't just Protestant but legitimate and had the better claim).

Oh, huh! Yeah, I am making my way through the Jude Morgan, and James (not-yet-II)... this seems entirely consistent with the picture Morgan is drawing :P

From:

selenak

I should say that the nonfiction Monmouth biographer (whom I read after having read the novel) disagrees with Jude Morgan, novelist, on how bad the James/Jemmy relationship was early on, i.e. the non fiction biographer thinks they got along well for some years until Monmouth was starting to have followers of his own and the rumors that Charles would legitimize him and/or that he was the product of a secret marriage and thus legitimate to begin with were becoming not idle but an actual political weapon. Whereas in Morgan's novel they go from mild dislike to active hatred. But for the most part, both authors agree on James as a person.

The non fiction biographer, btw, thinks the reason why Charles while acknowledging all his bastards did have such a close relationship to Monmouth in particular and did more for him than for any of the others wasn't just because Jemmy was the oldest (Charles had been only 18 when getting him), but that all the other children had their mothers to fight for them and care for them. Whereas Charles had kidnapped this oldest son from his mother, and then she had died, so there was no other parent/champion. For good or ill, anything that this oldest child became was on Charles.

From:

cahn

Ah, that's good to know about the James/Jemmy relationship! And that they agree on James :)

Huh, assuming that the biographer is right about that, that does seem to say good things about Charles, that it was this child he needed to take care of. (I mean... kind of low bar, okay, but one of those low bars that I feel like a lot of people didn't/don't meet?)