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cahnAnd in this post:
-luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!
-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, andselenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!
-mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War
(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)
-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
-
luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, and
selenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!-
mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)
-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-01 10:38 pm (UTC)That's what I want you to do! In fact, I'm counting on your questions, because I think an organic convo here is going to work much better for all parties than an infodump.
Also, when you get around to reading Massie, bring up the things you encounter and we'll discuss them, and that will help a lot!
[Warning for anyone who reads Massie's Catherine, he thinks Catherine had a cute teenage romance with her uncle in which she made the first move on him.
He also hates on Peter III like he's Shakespeare writing about Richard III. But without the Shakespeare. :P]
I very much admire the way you've tied it to things I already know (or at least things that I have a referent for, even if uh maybe it wasn't something I actually *knew* haha), thank you and well done :D
That was deliberate! I will try to create links as we go, and I know Selena will add more.
Oh, huh! That was actually really interesting to me because I'd always got the impression it was because he was so enamoured of Fritz :)
Fritz was definitely part of it! But it was when Peter started telling the army that they were going to march off to fight Denmark and he was going to go with him, and Fritz was like, "Okay, if I can't talk you out of this STUPID IDEA, please at least get crowned in Moscow first? So that your subjects consider your person too sacred to assassinate?" and Peter was like, "Pfff, everyone's been telling me for years how glad they'll be to finally have a man in charge instead of a woman, no one would ever!" and prepared to march off to war against Denmark, that he got overthrown, a few days after writing that "What are you worried about?" letter to Fritz.
So! This means I should explain about Holstein, so you can understand where HolsteinPete was coming from.
Just so you're prepared, I consider Holstein the single most complicated part of the Great Northern War. :P But I'm glad I finally figured it out, because the confusion has been bugging me ever since I started reading about Peter III.
To begin at the beginning, there's Holstein, and there's Schleswig. Both are smallish (but significant) regions in the vicinity of the Denmark-Germany border. Holstein is the southern part, today in Germany, Schleswig is the northern part, today partly in Germany, partly in Denmark. This map is for 1866, but close enough to give you the general idea for these two regions. (Note, though, that Prussia has gobbled up some nearby territory since our period.)
The Schleswig-Holstein region was divided between two1 brothers in the 16th century. One brother was the King of Denmark, and one was the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp. Where is Gottorp, you ask? Gottorp is a castle in the city of Schleswig. Thus Schleswig is a region and a city, Holstein is a region, and Gottorp ("Gottorf") is a castle in one of those regions. "Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp" is thus a shorthand for "Schleswig-Holstein at Gottorp," which is short for "The Schleswig-Holstein Duchy, as opposed to the royal Schleswig-Holstein area ruled by the kings of Denmark, has its ducal seat at Gottorp."
If you can follow that, you will be at least 50% less confused than I was for a very long time.
So here's the next most confusing part.
The two new territories were neither geographically contiguous nor politically independent. The 1650 map looks like this. Don't worry about the details, just notice the number of colors and the lack of contiguity.
Only the first three items of the legend are important enough to translate; for the rest, you just need to admire the pretty colors and take them as a reflection of just how complicated the geopolitical situation was.
- Koniglicher Anteil = Royal part
- Herzoglicher Anteil = Ducal part
- Gemeinsam regierte Anteil = commonly ruled part (this right here tells you they're going to have problems)
Notice how the first three colors are also not contiguous, and include regions both in the north (Schleswig) and the south (Holstein).
And if you want to know what the last item is, it says that Holstein is fighting with its neighbors over the dark purple, so just to add more fat to the fire.
Now, what were the dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp and kings of Denmark were supposed to do with this complicated map? They were supposed to share 2, and get along, and play nicely with each other, and pretend conflicts of interest didn't exist. And, because we're talking generations of power politics, that didn't happen. Mostly the Schleswig-Holstein dukes and Danish kings fought with each other.
Now this is where you have to understand a very important concept of early modern Europe: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Also called "leapfrogging diplomacy," because there is a tendency, not absolute but noticeable, for countries in Europe to be allied with the country on the other side of their neighbor. This is why France and Scotland had what was called the "Auld Alliance" (predating even the early modern period): both hating on England. This is why France and the Ottoman Empire were such old allies: both hating on Austria. And why Fritz kept trying to bring Turkey into the war against Austria.
And, it's why the Dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp are so buddy-buddy with the Swedes: both hating on Denmark. The Schleswig-Holstein dukes married into the Swedish royal family so much that I'm going to have to share some family trees later.
Meanwhile, what you need to know for the Great Nothern War is that Charles XII's brother-in-law was the duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp. When Denmark decided to go to war with Sweden, the first thing they did was decide to attack, not Sweden, but Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp. Charles XII, who was BFFs (lovers?) with his brother-in-law, and whose political interests were aligned with Holstein-Gottorp, freed it from Denmark and knocked Denmark out of the war. (More details on how he did this to come.)
By the end of the war, Sweden was overextended, though, and Denmark managed to hang onto the Schleswig portion of the Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp duchy in 1720-1721. That made the Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp duchy into just the Holstein-Gottorp duchy.3 Peter III's dad never stopped trying to get Schleswig back. Peter III, who grew up in Holstein, was raised to believe that it was his sacred family duty to restore the lost family property.
So the first thing he did when he had an army, in 1762, was try to get it back. Unfortunately, Russia was like, "We just bled and died to take very important territory (East Prussia) away from Old Fritz, and you're giving it back to him for free, and now you want us to go bleed and die for fucking Schleswig?! Which is of no strategic or economic importance to Russia at all?? You have got to be kidding me. Catherine, you're looking particularly regal today."
And the rest, as they say, is history. (Catherine's first move, learning from her predecessor, was to get crowned at Moscow with every traditional ritual ever. Which was interesting in her case, because a lot of people were like, "Aren't you supposed to be regent for your son?" And she was like, "You should see me in a crown." :P "And now also my person is too sacred to assassinate." Which doesn't stop everyone, of course4, but it definitely helps give you that aura of royal mystique.)
Notes, because it's *that* complicated:
1. Three, but I'm reducing this to the bare minimum that affects Peter III. Seriously, there were multiple divisions and reunifications that are elided here.
2. To make matters worse, the parts in Holstein were in the Holy Roman Empire, so nominally the kings of Denmark and the dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp were subjects of the Holy Roman emperors in the southern region of their territories. In practice, you can ignore this, because the emperors didn't really care enough to bother the dukes and kings about it. Which is good, because the Schleswig-Holstein dukes and Danish kings had enough trouble with each other and with the kings of Sweden.
3. This means it was called "Holstein-Gottorp" after 1721 even though Gottorp was (and still is) in Schleswig, i.e. now under the sole control of the kings of Denmark. Which means Gottorp was no longer in Holstein-Gottorp, which was now called "Holstein-Gottorp" for historical reasons. (Talk about maximal confusion.) So the ducal seat had to be moved to Kiel in Holstein, which the dukes still controlled. This is where Peter III grew up.
4. Selena or I will have to tell you about Pugachev one day.
Re: The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-02 05:59 am (UTC)He also hates on Peter III like he's Shakespeare writing about Richard III. But without the Shakespeare. :P]
So like Poniatowiski in his memoirs, then?
Holstein is the southern part, today in Germany, Schleswig is the northern part, today partly in Germany, partly in Denmark.
Just for added joy: today, the federal state in question is called "Schleswig-Holstein". During the last election (September this year), a Danish party based there for the first time since eons made it back into parliament. You might have noticed that Hamburg (and Lübeck) are right at the borders of it in their own colors. Historically, this was because they were both independent (wealthy) Hanseatic cities (and thus directly subjects to the Emperor, not to some noble liege lord). Today, Hamburg is still its own federal state in the Federal Republic of Germany, which is a major annoyance to my AP who thinks it should become part of the federal state Schleswig-Holstein already so we have one less federal state. I haven't yet met a citizen of Hamburg who agrees. (Possibly because Hamburg is rich, and Schleswig-Holstein, not so much.)
The part of Schleswig-Holstein I know myself is the island Sylt, which is a no.1 vacation spot of the republic, and when I was a child we used to go there every year.
Re: The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-03 09:04 pm (UTC)Worse.
The Schleswig-Holstein question is one of the things we actually covered in my not-great high school, at least to the extent that we learned that in the 19th century there was a big debate over where to draw the German-Danish border. Details, no, and for once I don't blame the teacher or the educational system.
Lol, Wikipedia gives me this quote, which feels very accurate after my attempts to un-confuse myself enough that I can follow major developments:
The British statesman Lord Palmerston is reported to have said: "Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business – the Prince Consort, who is dead – a German professor, who has gone mad – and I, who have forgotten all about it."
THAT SOUNDS RIGHT.
Re: The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-05 05:15 am (UTC)Hee!
Re: The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-05 05:13 am (UTC)OMG this is amazing. Someone (alley_skywalker?) has to write the fandom AU of this :D
One brother was the King of Denmark, and one was the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp. Where is Gottorp, you ask? Gottorp is a castle in the city of Schleswig. Thus Schleswig is a region and a city, Holstein is a region, and Gottorp ("Gottorf") is a castle in one of those regions. "Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp" is thus a shorthand for "Schleswig-Holstein at Gottorp," which is short for "The Schleswig-Holstein Duchy, as opposed to the royal Schleswig-Holstein area ruled by the kings of Denmark, has its ducal seat at Gottorp."
WHAT. I mean, okay, thanks for explaining that. But WHAT
Charles XII, who was BFFs (lovers?) with his brother-in-law
You... what?! can't just throw out things like that!
4. Selena or I will have to tell you about Pugachev one day.
Yes please! This sounds like good gossipy sensationalism :)
Re: The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-05 10:33 am (UTC)RIGHT? When I realized I needed to understand Schleswig-Holstein to understand the Great Northern War, I sat down with Wikipedia and some books and looked things up and took notes for like 30 minutes until I had it straight in my head. !!
And again, I SIMPLIFIED IT FOR YOU.
You... what?! can't just throw out things like that!
Right, right, thank you for reminding me! I also need to give you the gossipy sensationalism on "the Gottorp fury", i.e., the brother-in-law. (I will warn you that the "lovers" remark basically consists of historians going, "Well, they did the frat boy thing together, and Charles later didn't have sex with women ever, so...if he was gay, then maybe this guy was a candidate?" rather than any actual direct evidence that they were doing anything other than being rowdy teenagers together. But I'll give you some of the crazy stories of what they're supposed to have gotten up to together. Trello note added.)
And I'm throwing things out on purpose in hopes you guys pick up on them, so I can write posts in response to things you've expressed interest in, like A+ tragic minister, as opposed to having to present everything up front. ;)