Frederick the Great and Other 18th-C Characters, Discussion Post 31

[cahn]

And in this post:

-luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!

-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, and selenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!

-mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War

(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)

-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D

Comments

Re: William III, FW, and Sophia

[luzula]

Oh, interesting about the suggestion of making James "III" the heir when he was still young and malleable. It seems unbelievable that James II would refuse to abdicate in his favor! But maybe not, when you look at his behavior on other occasions.

I don't know enough about James III's feelings on religion to know if would have converted? BPC did so in 1750, when it was too late...I do wonder why he didn't do it in 1745. He doesn't seem to have personally been all that attached to Catholicism.

BPC and religious conversion

[mildred_of_midgard]

BPC did so in 1750, when it was too late...

This is one of those things that back in the late 90s, I learned that it was an unsubstantiated rumor. Now I keep seeing that scholars believe it. Do you know what evidence turned up in the last 20 years? I refuse to look because of reasons that you know.

(You guuuuuys, the Great Northern War is nothing like the War of the Spanish Succession. There is NO way to summarize it comprehensively and intelligibly, although I will give it my best shot. I can see why Blanning was going, "Summarizing the Great Northern War is a hard and almost unsolved problem." I cannot afford to get distracted by Jacobite historiographic developments! Also, I have two time-consuming essays in progress, Fredersdorf+Pfeiffer and Peter Keith!)

I do wonder why he didn't do it in 1745. He doesn't seem to have personally been all that attached to Catholicism.

I have often wondered that myself. I don't know if this is apocryphal, but I seem to remember this (paraphrased from memory) quote from the '45: "Do you know what the religion of princes is? I'll tell you: It is the religion of their subjects." (I.e., whatever religion keeps them in power. Says a grandson of J2!)

My opinion is that first and foremost, in 1745, he was too optimistic to think he'd have to. Divine right of kings! People would flock to his banner because obviously! They were sewing dragon banners! Only after the failure of the rising did he realize that he might have to make some concessions.

Then there were, of course, the political aspects of his initial support base (France, Scottish Jacobites) being predominantly (not exclusively) Catholic, but I think those were secondary considerations. He'd been Catholic his whole life, changing that probably wasn't extremely on his radar at that age (growing up in Rome as he did), and he believed so whole-heartedly in his mission that he probably didn't see what he needed to change. "I am come home."

Re: BPC and religious conversion

[luzula]

This is one of those things that back in the late 90s, I learned that it was an unsubstantiated rumor. Now I keep seeing that scholars believe it. Do you know what evidence turned up in the last 20 years? I refuse to look because of reasons that you know.

Oh, okay? I've seen it in multiple sources, and never seen anyone saying it wasn't true... But I'll dig into it and see what I can find. : ) Meanwhile, this book from 2020, which seems a reputable one, definitely believes it. Just to show that current books contain the claim.