Frederick the Great and Other 18th-C Characters, Discussion Post 31

[cahn]

And in this post:

-luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!

-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, and selenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!

-mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War

(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)

-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D

Comments

Re: The '45: from Derby to Culloden and after

[felis]

Yeah, I saw the date problem but, given the brackets, kind of filed it under typo/editor mistake.

or that Keith left Russia at the end of 1746

Fritz still wasn't sure if Keith had left Russian service in July 1747 (repeatedly writing to his Russian envoy to inquire about his status and whereabouts), and Keith only arrived in Berlin in October. Fritz to Finckenstein on October 28th: Moreover, General Keith arrived here a fortnight ago. I have just taken him into my service and appointed him Field Marshal General.

That said, it's possible that there was some secret poaching going on and that's why Fritz was so eager to know more about Keith's whereabouts. On the other hand, this seems like a very risky thing to do and it makes zero sense to me that Fritz would have told anyone, let alone BPC, before Keith was even safely out of Russia.

See also this letter George wrote to his brother early in November 1747: All the Gasettiers cannot be mistaken; he of Ausbourg sais you are made Field-Maréchal by the King of Prussia. If so, I heartily wish you joy of being in the service of a Prince of such merit, of being out of Russia, and off the sea. That you got out of Russia seems a miracle to me. As far as I know, due to the English putting pressure on the Russians, George was refused entry into the country when he wanted to visit James in the summer of 1746. Both the refusal and the English meddling seem to have been reasons for James' decision to quit Russian service, but he had to be delicate and careful about it.

(although some 50% of the things I think are fake turn out to be real and vice versa

Heee. I recently came across a very fake-sounding 1757 letter from Fritz to MT and was rather proud of myself when I investigated and was proven right.)

Re: The '45: from Derby to Culloden and after

[mildred_of_midgard]

Ooh, you are awesome! Good find, and I'm going with "fake" now!

Was that letter cited in Duffy, luzula? Or another book? Duffy in my experience does readable military history and is valuable in that respect, but when it comes to his source analysis, he repeatedly falls for fake and dubious sources in a way that is more egregious than your average Fritz biographer.

Heee. I recently came across a very fake-sounding 1757 letter from Fritz to MT and was rather proud of myself when I investigated and was proven right.)

Hee! Good for you! I was suspicious about Eugene's memoirs from the first page, and then Selena found that they were written by the Prince de Ligne, and I was pleased. :)

If only professional historians were this skeptical!

Re: The '45: from Derby to Culloden and after

[luzula]

It is from Duffy, yes! I don't know much about your Fritz, and so wasn't in a position to be critical of that bit.

Duffy wrote two books about the '45; the second one is an updated and expanded version of the first, where he says he went through four times as much source material as for the first. It has an incredible amount of detail compared to other books I've found, which is valuable for writing fanfic set during the war. : )

ETA: In general I find it frustrating when historians make judgements about people's character, or competence, or motivations, and don't tell you how they got to that conclusion. See for example the Lenman quote in one of my comments. Maybe he had read lots of the guy's letters, or whatever, to come to that conclusion, but how am I to know? In that respect Duffy is no worse and considerably better than some books I've read at backing up his judgement by citing sources--though perhaps, as you say, sometimes uncritical of those sources.