re: Philip intervening on the Dudley Brothers behalf, I checked and I had misremembered one detail - the Spanish noblewoman Jane Dudley had befriended was in fact the Duchess of Alba, not Mendoza! Jane didn't survive her sons' release from the Tower by much (natural causes); her last will is one reason why we know about her lobbying with the Spaniards who'd come with Philip, for she remembered them gratefully. Due to her husband having been executed as a traitor and his fortune still being annexed as a crown, she didn't have much to leave them, but the Duchess of Alba did receive her green parrot, and Don Diego de Acevedo she gave "the new bed of green velvet with all the furniture to it; beseeching him even as he hath in my lifetime showed himself like a father and a brother to my sons, so shall [I] require him no less to do now their mother is gone". The surviving Dudley brothers - Ambrose, Robert and Henry - after their release fought for Philip at the battle of St. Quentin against the French (Philip won, but the youngest, Henry, died in it, in eyeshot of Robert and Ambrose).
Now it has to be said that the late John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland, had converted back to Catholicism and had urged his wife Jane to do the same. (Traditionally it was seen as an example of his cowardice and vain attempt to save his life, but in the last few decades when his image went through more positive revisions, it has been pointed out he may have done it precisely to save his remaining sons, and if so, it worked as intended.) Meaning that that Philip, who didn't know the Dudleys from scratch, may have regarded them as a sincerely repentant Catholic family. (Naturally, as soon as Mary wasn't Queen anymore, all remaining Dudleys became Protestant again.) But be that as it may, he - and his entourage - didn't owe these people anything, and in England, they were regarded as an upstart family, not as old English nobility like the Howards or the Percys. There was nothing to gain by helping then, and John Dudley & sons had done their best to keep Mary from becoming Queen. So Philip really did not have another motive but being kind to a mother and window when granting Jane Dudley's petition. This is demonstrably the same man who decades later when the entire court is avoiding Medina-Sidonia (the Armada leader) like the plague after his failure is gracious to him, saying "I've sent you against men, not waves and winds". (Schiller used an actual anecdote for that scene.) None of which was much comfort to many a persecuted Protestant (or Dutchman of either faith, or Converso Jew or Muslim accused of practising their old faith), but what I'm getting at is that Philip did have it in him to be kind. (See also him granting Barbara Blomberg the life she wanted in the end.)
Another example for Philip: the softer side would be that when his grandmother Juana died - whom he had visited as a boy - he asked that the big mourning ceremony in Bruxelles ordered by his father be postponed until he could participate (he was in England at the time, so the way wasn't as long as if he'd have to travel from Spain).
I hadn't really thought about the Reformation in the sense that it WAS going to happen whether it was specifically Luther or not (which, yeah).
In fairness, Luther made some unique-to-him contributions - including the bible translation which basically jumpstarted modern German and is as important as the King James translation in English -, and he was able to win both "common" people and (parts of the) nobility as followers for his ideas in a way not many others could. But, like I said: even if he'd died immediately after Worms, the Reformation would have continued to happen. BTW, I think I linked this before, but just in case I haven't:
Luther at the Diet of Worms from the series Carlos Rey Emperador, in which Charles, Ferdinand and some advisors debate what to do about him. It's fairly accurate as far as it goes except for the tv unfriendly detail that Luther had started his first replies/speeches in German and then Charles asked him to speak in Latin so he could understand what was being said. (Charles was 19 then, very recently Emperor and had only begun to learn German.) Also in this sequence early on: Aunt Margaret of Austria.
apparently my brain had just painted in black hair every time! *facepalm*
It happens. :) This Titian portrait of him as a young man shows it pretty well, too:
Incidentally, I checked what the AO3 fanfiction situation for Charles, his female relations and Philip is and saw that outside of Don Carlos fanfiction for Philip, they only tend to appear in Tudor centric fanfiction. Where often, no sooner do I think "that premise is kind of interesting" do I start reading and get thrown out by a stunner like young Charles, when visiting England, being totally on board with supporting Henry VIII's claims on Burgundy. Charles. The grandson of Mary of Burgundy, still calling himself Duke of Burgundy (even if the Burgundy part of that Dukedom is gone and it means effectually the Netherlands). Author, I think, of course he'd intermittendly in his life team up with Henry against Francis I. of France, but why on earth he'd consider freaking Henry to have a better claim on Burgundy than himself is something you don't bother to explain.
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Re: Margaret of Parma
Date: 2021-07-05 08:32 am (UTC)Now it has to be said that the late John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland, had converted back to Catholicism and had urged his wife Jane to do the same. (Traditionally it was seen as an example of his cowardice and vain attempt to save his life, but in the last few decades when his image went through more positive revisions, it has been pointed out he may have done it precisely to save his remaining sons, and if so, it worked as intended.) Meaning that that Philip, who didn't know the Dudleys from scratch, may have regarded them as a sincerely repentant Catholic family. (Naturally, as soon as Mary wasn't Queen anymore, all remaining Dudleys became Protestant again.) But be that as it may, he - and his entourage - didn't owe these people anything, and in England, they were regarded as an upstart family, not as old English nobility like the Howards or the Percys. There was nothing to gain by helping then, and John Dudley & sons had done their best to keep Mary from becoming Queen. So Philip really did not have another motive but being kind to a mother and window when granting Jane Dudley's petition. This is demonstrably the same man who decades later when the entire court is avoiding Medina-Sidonia (the Armada leader) like the plague after his failure is gracious to him, saying "I've sent you against men, not waves and winds". (Schiller used an actual anecdote for that scene.) None of which was much comfort to many a persecuted Protestant (or Dutchman of either faith, or Converso Jew or Muslim accused of practising their old faith), but what I'm getting at is that Philip did have it in him to be kind. (See also him granting Barbara Blomberg the life she wanted in the end.)
Another example for Philip: the softer side would be that when his grandmother Juana died - whom he had visited as a boy - he asked that the big mourning ceremony in Bruxelles ordered by his father be postponed until he could participate (he was in England at the time, so the way wasn't as long as if he'd have to travel from Spain).
I hadn't really thought about the Reformation in the sense that it WAS going to happen whether it was specifically Luther or not (which, yeah).
In fairness, Luther made some unique-to-him contributions - including the bible translation which basically jumpstarted modern German and is as important as the King James translation in English -, and he was able to win both "common" people and (parts of the) nobility as followers for his ideas in a way not many others could. But, like I said: even if he'd died immediately after Worms, the Reformation would have continued to happen. BTW, I think I linked this before, but just in case I haven't:
Luther at the Diet of Worms from the series Carlos Rey Emperador, in which Charles, Ferdinand and some advisors debate what to do about him. It's fairly accurate as far as it goes except for the tv unfriendly detail that Luther had started his first replies/speeches in German and then Charles asked him to speak in Latin so he could understand what was being said. (Charles was 19 then, very recently Emperor and had only begun to learn German.) Also in this sequence early on: Aunt Margaret of Austria.
apparently my brain had just painted in black hair every time! *facepalm*
It happens. :) This Titian portrait of him as a young man shows it pretty well, too:
Incidentally, I checked what the AO3 fanfiction situation for Charles, his female relations and Philip is and saw that outside of Don Carlos fanfiction for Philip, they only tend to appear in Tudor centric fanfiction. Where often, no sooner do I think "that premise is kind of interesting" do I start reading and get thrown out by a stunner like young Charles, when visiting England, being totally on board with supporting Henry VIII's claims on Burgundy. Charles. The grandson of Mary of Burgundy, still calling himself Duke of Burgundy (even if the Burgundy part of that Dukedom is gone and it means effectually the Netherlands). Author, I think, of course he'd intermittendly in his life team up with Henry against Francis I. of France, but why on earth he'd consider freaking Henry to have a better claim on Burgundy than himself is something you don't bother to explain.