I feel like FW-enforced intoxication was more ad hoc and less systematic!
That's how it struck me, too. Though no wonder FW and Peter got along when they met. I remember from one of the Manteuffel biographies that Le Diable, who was the envoy in Berlin during Peter's last tour there, wasn't impressed with either of them and their revels in his reports to Fleming (though of course unlike poor Whitworth, he could roll with it enough when required to beome a member of the club.
Mind you, in that age, it's more difficult to find the monarchs or supreme rulers who valued sobriety instead. I mean, Philippe d'Orleans the Regent also got drunk so often that Saint-Simon thought it contributed to his early death at the age of 45. (Though he didn't get drunk with foreign envoys, he did it with his mates.) And it's a miracle August the Strong didn't die far sooner given all he ate and drank.
Though to point out the obvious: even if Rottembourg *did* long for FW's Prussia from Spain, it wasn't high praise of FW but more of a "it's a low bar, but you're better than Philip V urinating in bed and thinking he's a frog," imo.
Naturally. BTW, does the Philip biography have much to say about Farinelli? Covering the musical angle here for cahn.
In terms of envoys debating which was the worst posting: I'm trying to decide how the Hannover Georges would fare. On the one hand, London offers a great deal, from highbrow (Händel operas, Royal Society, great literature being written) to low brow (thriving brothels to the point that supposedly every fifth woman worked as a prostitute at least at some point in her life mid century, and there were "molly houses" for gay men, too). The press was freer than in any other European country. On the downside, no matter whether you arrived in the G1, G2 or G3 era, you were bound to have a constellation where the reigning monarch and the Prince of Wales cordially hate each other's guts. As envoy, you must of course mainly be on good terms with the reigning monarch, but pissing of the next one also isn't good idea. And because most of the power at this point is in the hands of the PM and parliament, you also have to get along with the top ministers.
Btw.: if instead of Fritz trying to escape Prussia, Fritz of Wales had shown up in Berlin/Potsdam, declaring himself a refugee from paternal (and maternal) naltreaatment, how do you think FW would have reacted? (Army desertion would not have been a factor in this case, since Fritz of Wales, unlike younger brother Cumberland, was not a member of the British army.) (Or the Hannoverian one, for that matter.) Delighted at the chance to annoy G2? Inconvenienced as what to do with the nephew? Caught between "children must obey and honor their fathers above all" and "hey, he's still the future heir, right? Let's get all the concessions!"
Newly crowned Fritz asked his Hanoverian envoy to keep the search for Peter discreet. Any thoughts on why?
That's easy, imo. Remember, everyone - well, not the French envoy, or Suhm, or Manteuffel - expected Fritz become a peacenik, pleasure loving king who, depending on your own pov, will be a philosopher or putty in the hand of his favourites. Recalling your old teacher openly is one thing - that's commendable, he's old, he's not a scandalous person, everyone will see this as positive and becoming gratitude in a monarch. Instantly summoning Algarotti: also not a problem, Algarotti is a new aquaintance and a much sought after international celebrity, he had nothing to do with pre 1730 Fritz. Promoting Hans Heinrich to Field Marshal: also not a problem. He has had the career to deserve it, and Hans Herrmann is dead. Again, very commendable. But Peter? Peter is the living embodiment of 1730. He is, without a question, a deserter, and Fritz' policy is to surprise his father's generals by solely dissolving the Giants and dispensing them onto other regiments but otherwise be behind the army 100%, no more "Sterbekittel" slanders. Peter also exactly who FW has always imagined King Fritz would be dominated by - a friend who from FW's pov encouraged him in his worst instincts, i.e. to go against his father's abuse wishes.
If Katte really met up with him in Paris, then maybe they were still super close, but it's no longer evidence for that, nor for the strength of the apparent crisis.
That is unfortunate, but then, you yourself have said you still wouldn't mind the Rokoko babysitting plot despite being convinced now that the unnamed brother from Fritz' letter was AW. Just proceed with Mentor!Rottembourg.
though of course unlike poor Whitworth, he could roll with it enough when required to beome a member of the club
It's 1716, and Whitworth has just announced that he likes Berlin best of all his postings so far! Considering his experience has been Regensburg both when under foreign occupation and when the Peace of Utrecht is being hammered out (and Whitworth is frustrated by the Diet's complete inability to get anything productive done), and Moscow, this is a low bar, but:
You see I am now settling into my new post, something more agreable, but much more expensive than Ratisbonne [Cahn: Regensburg] tho my Revenue is lesen'd by my new Establishment, but for better or for worse should be the motto of Ministers & married Men.
Whitworth, btw, is one of those relatively rare diplomats who *isn't* independently wealthy. Since salaries were low and more often than not, paid out several years after they were due, he's constantly asking his family for money, apologizing to them, complaining to his bosses, and wondering whether this is actually a viable career.
Fritz: See, this is why I said Peter Keith not being rich was a strike against him as envoy!
Naturally. BTW, does the Philip biography have much to say about Farinelli? Covering the musical angle here for cahn.
A little bit, yeah. Will include that in my Philip V write-up when I'm not hoping my insomnia ends soon.
Caught between "children must obey and honor their fathers above all" and "hey, he's still the future heir, right? Let's get all the concessions!"
This is my guess!
But Peter? Peter is the living embodiment of 1730.
I figured that would be your take on it. Poor Peter. :(
That is unfortunate, but then, you yourself have said you still wouldn't mind the Rokoko babysitting plot despite being convinced now that the unnamed brother from Fritz' letter was AW. Just proceed with Mentor!Rottembourg.
Oh, sure, for fanfic! It's just that putting on my historian hat, I have to adjust my headcanon now. But Mentor!Rottembourg is exactly the kind of fleshing out that fanfic is *for*! (I do think, historically, that Rottembourg was a mentor figure. I just no longer believe in "I need to talk to you in person SO BADLY that I will make an unauthorized detour to Spain!") Totally keeping the detour to Spain for fanfic, though, especially since there's additional plot reason for it.
And yes, would read the heck out of Heinrich babysitting even now that I think it was AW!
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Philip V and French Count Rottembourg
Date: 2021-05-29 07:56 am (UTC)That's how it struck me, too. Though no wonder FW and Peter got along when they met. I remember from one of the Manteuffel biographies that Le Diable, who was the envoy in Berlin during Peter's last tour there, wasn't impressed with either of them and their revels in his reports to Fleming (though of course unlike poor Whitworth, he could roll with it enough when required to beome a member of the club.
Mind you, in that age, it's more difficult to find the monarchs or supreme rulers who valued sobriety instead. I mean, Philippe d'Orleans the Regent also got drunk so often that Saint-Simon thought it contributed to his early death at the age of 45. (Though he didn't get drunk with foreign envoys, he did it with his mates.) And it's a miracle August the Strong didn't die far sooner given all he ate and drank.
Though to point out the obvious: even if Rottembourg *did* long for FW's Prussia from Spain, it wasn't high praise of FW but more of a "it's a low bar, but you're better than Philip V urinating in bed and thinking he's a frog," imo.
Naturally. BTW, does the Philip biography have much to say about Farinelli? Covering the musical angle here for
In terms of envoys debating which was the worst posting: I'm trying to decide how the Hannover Georges would fare. On the one hand, London offers a great deal, from highbrow (Händel operas, Royal Society, great literature being written) to low brow (thriving brothels to the point that supposedly every fifth woman worked as a prostitute at least at some point in her life mid century, and there were "molly houses" for gay men, too). The press was freer than in any other European country. On the downside, no matter whether you arrived in the G1, G2 or G3 era, you were bound to have a constellation where the reigning monarch and the Prince of Wales cordially hate each other's guts. As envoy, you must of course mainly be on good terms with the reigning monarch, but pissing of the next one also isn't good idea. And because most of the power at this point is in the hands of the PM and parliament, you also have to get along with the top ministers.
Btw.: if instead of Fritz trying to escape Prussia, Fritz of Wales had shown up in Berlin/Potsdam, declaring himself a refugee from paternal (and maternal) naltreaatment, how do you think FW would have reacted? (Army desertion would not have been a factor in this case, since Fritz of Wales, unlike younger brother Cumberland, was not a member of the British army.) (Or the Hannoverian one, for that matter.) Delighted at the chance to annoy G2? Inconvenienced as what to do with the nephew? Caught between "children must obey and honor their fathers above all" and "hey, he's still the future heir, right? Let's get all the concessions!"
Newly crowned Fritz asked his Hanoverian envoy to keep the search for Peter discreet. Any thoughts on why?
That's easy, imo. Remember, everyone - well, not the French envoy, or Suhm, or Manteuffel - expected Fritz become a peacenik, pleasure loving king who, depending on your own pov, will be a philosopher or putty in the hand of his favourites. Recalling your old teacher openly is one thing - that's commendable, he's old, he's not a scandalous person, everyone will see this as positive and becoming gratitude in a monarch. Instantly summoning Algarotti: also not a problem, Algarotti is a new aquaintance and a much sought after international celebrity, he had nothing to do with pre 1730 Fritz. Promoting Hans Heinrich to Field Marshal: also not a problem. He has had the career to deserve it, and Hans Herrmann is dead. Again, very commendable. But Peter? Peter is the living embodiment of 1730. He is, without a question, a deserter, and Fritz' policy is to surprise his father's generals by solely dissolving the Giants and dispensing them onto other regiments but otherwise be behind the army 100%, no more "Sterbekittel" slanders. Peter also exactly who FW has always imagined King Fritz would be dominated by - a friend who from FW's pov encouraged him in his worst instincts, i.e. to go against his father's
abusewishes.If Katte really met up with him in Paris, then maybe they were still super close, but it's no longer evidence for that, nor for the strength of the apparent crisis.
That is unfortunate, but then, you yourself have said you still wouldn't mind the Rokoko babysitting plot despite being convinced now that the unnamed brother from Fritz' letter was AW. Just proceed with Mentor!Rottembourg.
Re: Philip V and French Count Rottembourg
Date: 2021-05-29 11:04 am (UTC)It's 1716, and Whitworth has just announced that he likes Berlin best of all his postings so far! Considering his experience has been Regensburg both when under foreign occupation and when the Peace of Utrecht is being hammered out (and Whitworth is frustrated by the Diet's complete inability to get anything productive done), and Moscow, this is a low bar, but:
You see I am now settling into my new post, something more agreable, but much more expensive than Ratisbonne [Cahn: Regensburg] tho my Revenue is lesen'd by my new Establishment, but for better or for worse should be the motto of Ministers & married Men.
Whitworth, btw, is one of those relatively rare diplomats who *isn't* independently wealthy. Since salaries were low and more often than not, paid out several years after they were due, he's constantly asking his family for money, apologizing to them, complaining to his bosses, and wondering whether this is actually a viable career.
Fritz: See, this is why I said Peter Keith not being rich was a strike against him as envoy!
Naturally. BTW, does the Philip biography have much to say about Farinelli? Covering the musical angle here for cahn.
A little bit, yeah. Will include that in my Philip V write-up when I'm not hoping my insomnia ends soon.
Caught between "children must obey and honor their fathers above all" and "hey, he's still the future heir, right? Let's get all the concessions!"
This is my guess!
But Peter? Peter is the living embodiment of 1730.
I figured that would be your take on it. Poor Peter. :(
That is unfortunate, but then, you yourself have said you still wouldn't mind the Rokoko babysitting plot despite being convinced now that the unnamed brother from Fritz' letter was AW. Just proceed with Mentor!Rottembourg.
Oh, sure, for fanfic! It's just that putting on my historian hat, I have to adjust my headcanon now. But Mentor!Rottembourg is exactly the kind of fleshing out that fanfic is *for*! (I do think, historically, that Rottembourg was a mentor figure. I just no longer believe in "I need to talk to you in person SO BADLY that I will make an unauthorized detour to Spain!") Totally keeping the detour to Spain for fanfic, though, especially since there's additional plot reason for it.
And yes, would read the heck out of Heinrich babysitting even now that I think it was AW!