Charles-Joseph de Ligne, ghostwriter of fictional Eugene memoirs, doesn't think so. He has Eugene declare that no one, including the Huguenots Louis kicked out of France, hated Louis more than himself.
There is not a Huguenot, expelled by the revocation of the edict of Nantz [usually spelled "Nantes"; Henri IV's edict of religious tolerance] , who hated him more than I did. Therefore, when Louvois [secretary of state for war], hearing of my departure, said, "so much the better, he will never return into this country again,"--I swore never to enter it, but with arms in my hands. I HAVE KEPT MY WORD.
I have penetrated it on many sides, and it is not my fault that I have not gone further. But for the English, I had given law in the capital of the Grand Monarque, and made his MAINTENON shut herself up in a convent for life.
Those were the paragraphs that made me go..."Could be fake." Eugene having a grudge is one thing, but Eugene being the kind of person who would write this in the preface to his memoirs is quite another (even with memoirs-as-therapy), for which I had no evidence based on what I have read about him. I could be wrong, but given the amount of fanfic passing as memoirs out there, I had my suspicions.
It surprised me not at all when you said the author "wanted to vent about the French (post Diplomatic Revolution Austria's allies, about which de Ligne was not happy)," which makes perfect sense. I'm glad it was first person fanfic rather than an intent to deceive, though, more ethical and also extremely relatable. ;)
I'm glad it was first person fanfic rather than an intent to deceive, though, more ethical and also extremely relatable. ;)
Oh, same here. If Ligne had published this within his life time with a deceptive intention, I'd have been forced to side-eye a couple of great anecdotes from his actual memoirs (which were published in his own life time). But first person fanfic written for his own amusement in order to vent? Totally relatable.
Eugene having a grudge is one thing, but Eugene being the kind of person who would write this in the preface to his memoirs is quite another (even with memoirs-as-therapy), for which I had no evidence based on what I have read about him.
*nods* Yes indeed, same here. Even Hervey doesn't open that masterpiece of bitchiness, his memoirs, with: "Attend, everyone! When Fritz of Wales broke up with me, I swore I would ruin his reputation forever. When G2 didn't keep me hin his goddam cabinet, I felt likewise inclined. And here I am, keeping my word!"
It's etremely fanfiction-y, though. Another giveway is that "would have made his MAINTENON shut herself in a convent for life". I doubt the real Eugene cared about Madame de Maintenon one way or the other. But she was a lightning rod for both long distant Louis haters and Louis admirers, being blamed for his turn towards the extremely conservative Catholicism of his later years on the one hand, and for the morganatic marriage on the other which, since she had started out barely-just-a-noble status, was an offense in terms of rank. (In that Lehndorff diary entry where he reads her fake memoirs, as far as I recall he also goes "wtf, Sun King? HER?"
ETA: Henri de Catt: See, I wasn't doing anything unusual! It's not like I published my RPF memoirs within my life time, either. Why are you Salonierres all down on me and keep quoting Boswell and Mitchell on how silly I was?
Even Hervey doesn't open that masterpiece of bitchiness, his memoirs, with: "Attend, everyone! When Fritz of Wales broke up with me, I swore I would ruin his reputation forever. When G2 didn't keep me hin his goddam cabinet, I felt likewise inclined. And here I am, keeping my word!"
LOLOL
I doubt the real Eugene cared about Madame de Maintenon one way or the other. But she was a lightning rod for both long distant Louis haters and Louis admirers
Right? I was looking at Wikipedia to see if he'd had a run-in with her, because that seemed rather unlike him. This makes so much sense as fanfic.
ETA: Henri de Catt: See, I wasn't doing anything unusual! It's not like I published my RPF memoirs within my life time, either. Why are you Salonierres all down on me and keep quoting Boswell and Mitchell on how silly I was?
ROTFL!!
I was thinking of Catt's unpublished memoirs, actually!
Well, the real reason we're mad at you, Catt, is because you had us fooled for so long, and no one else reads Koser's preface! (Duffy writes in a footnote that he's not above rearranging his memories for dramatic effect, but then repeatedly quotes Catt unquestioningly throughout the text. NO mention of plagiarizing texts or attributing things to Fritz that Catt didn't get from Fritz.)
Which I realize is unfair. I suppose I need more evidence that 1) you never intended to publish, 2) you fully expected everyone would recognize that it was fanfic, which, considering one of your sources was your diary, is a bit much.
I suppose I need more evidence that 1) you never intended to publish, 2) you fully expected everyone would recognize that it was fanfic, which, considering one of your sources was your diary, is a bit much.
There's also the fact that Zimmermann, Nicolai and some of the other early anecdote collectors and biographical writers all talked to Henri de Catt, several were told the suicide pill story, and I think Zimmermann at least was aware that Catt either had written or was in the process of writing his own book, may even have read it. All of which argues that Catt did intend to go public, if not within his own life time, then afterwards.
It's interesting in general to wonder how the various unpublished memoirists thought their memoirs were being treated. Sophie of Hanover insists she writes for herself, and within her life time, Leipniz seems to have been the only one who read them (when she gave them to him while he weas working on a general history of her family). If he hadn't made a copy, it's also questionable whether they would still exist, so she took no care to preserve them. Wilhelmine did take the care of making several copies, and the Memoirs, while unfinished, were a work in progress she redraftet at least twice, and where at least in the later part she does seem to intend it to be read (by her daughter, by future readers). (There is for example late in the memoirs a Fritz-critical passage where she asks the readers, plural to withhold their judgment on "the King" until she's finished her story.) So while self therapy was a big motivator, she was aware, and intended, the memoirs to be read at some future point beyond her and Fritz' lifetimes. (Which did indeed happen.) Hervey also definitely intended the Memoirs to be published, but was aware it would/could not happen in his own life time. (He probably hoped they'd be a bombshell torpedoing Fritz' of Wales' reign as King, not knowing FoW wouldn't outlive him for long.) Otoh, he wasn't careful enough, considering his offspring robbed posterity of some chapters. (Whereas Lady Mary knew this kind of thing would happen to her own writings if she just left them with her family and hence left the manuscript of the Embassy Letters in the Netherlands.
Meanwhile, Casanova: had published some autobiographical writings within his life time (the story of his escape from the lead chambers, for example, and the story of a duel), along with non-biographical essays. He probably figured and intended that the Memoirs would be published at some point after his death. But he didn't contact any publishers - and he knew several! - to make sure this would happen, so it might never have if his niece hadn't needed the cash.
Voltaire: you bet. Not even a question. Made sure it would happen, too. Rewrote his letters for good measure.
OH RIGHT, all the word-of-mouth evidence. (Like Catt telling Nicolai that Fritz started believing in the afterlife.)
Right, right, carrying on with the Catt-mocking tradition.
Rewrote his letters for good measure.
Voltaire: literally THE BEST. I should be mad at him over fooling everyone with Pamela for two hundred years, but it's too hilarious not to forgive. Also, Frankfurt, he had legitimate complaints there! Catt wasn't even trashing Fritz, he was just self-aggrandizing at the expense of innocent people who believed him.
Voltaire: literally THE BEST. I should be mad at him over fooling everyone with Pamela for two hundred years, but it's too hilarious not to forgive.
I knoooow, in principle I guess it's pretty similar to Catt, but in practice I'm kind of like LOLOLOLOL you are such a troll! There's honestly just... something about him rewriting an entire suite of letters and arranging for them to be disseminated after his death that... I just gotta admire the sheer over-the-topness that went into that.
Therefore, when Louvois [secretary of state for war], hearing of my departure, said, "so much the better, he will never return into this country again,"--I swore never to enter it, but with arms in my hands. I HAVE KEPT MY WORD.
LOL! That is great, and is definitely... extremely dramatic in a fanfic kind of way.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: French, Dutch, and Bavarian Backstories: Fictional annotations
Date: 2021-05-24 12:48 pm (UTC)We have to share the quote with
There is not a Huguenot, expelled by the revocation of the edict of Nantz [usually spelled "Nantes"; Henri IV's edict of religious tolerance] , who hated him more than I did. Therefore, when Louvois [secretary of state for war], hearing of my departure, said, "so much the better, he will never return into this country again,"--I swore never to enter it, but with arms in my hands. I HAVE KEPT MY WORD.
I have penetrated it on many sides, and it is not my fault that I have not gone further. But for the English, I had given law in the capital of the Grand Monarque, and made his MAINTENON shut herself up in a convent for life.
Those were the paragraphs that made me go..."Could be fake." Eugene having a grudge is one thing, but Eugene being the kind of person who would write this in the preface to his memoirs is quite another (even with memoirs-as-therapy), for which I had no evidence based on what I have read about him. I could be wrong, but given the amount of fanfic passing as memoirs out there, I had my suspicions.
It surprised me not at all when you said the author "wanted to vent about the French (post Diplomatic Revolution Austria's allies, about which de Ligne was not happy)," which makes perfect sense. I'm glad it was first person fanfic rather than an intent to deceive, though, more ethical and also extremely relatable. ;)
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: French, Dutch, and Bavarian Backstories: Fictional annotations
Date: 2021-05-24 01:12 pm (UTC)Oh, same here. If Ligne had published this within his life time with a deceptive intention, I'd have been forced to side-eye a couple of great anecdotes from his actual memoirs (which were published in his own life time). But first person fanfic written for his own amusement in order to vent? Totally relatable.
Eugene having a grudge is one thing, but Eugene being the kind of person who would write this in the preface to his memoirs is quite another (even with memoirs-as-therapy), for which I had no evidence based on what I have read about him.
*nods* Yes indeed, same here. Even Hervey doesn't open that masterpiece of bitchiness, his memoirs, with: "Attend, everyone! When Fritz of Wales broke up with me, I swore I would ruin his reputation forever. When G2 didn't keep me hin his goddam cabinet, I felt likewise inclined. And here I am, keeping my word!"
It's etremely fanfiction-y, though. Another giveway is that "would have made his MAINTENON shut herself in a convent for life". I doubt the real Eugene cared about Madame de Maintenon one way or the other. But she was a lightning rod for both long distant Louis haters and Louis admirers, being blamed for his turn towards the extremely conservative Catholicism of his later years on the one hand, and for the morganatic marriage on the other which, since she had started out barely-just-a-noble status, was an offense in terms of rank. (In that Lehndorff diary entry where he reads her fake memoirs, as far as I recall he also goes "wtf, Sun King? HER?"
ETA: Henri de Catt: See, I wasn't doing anything unusual! It's not like I published my
RPFmemoirs within my life time, either. Why are you Salonierres all down on me and keep quoting Boswell and Mitchell on how silly I was?Re: War of the Spanish Succession: French, Dutch, and Bavarian Backstories: Fictional annotations
Date: 2021-05-24 02:44 pm (UTC)LOLOL
I doubt the real Eugene cared about Madame de Maintenon one way or the other. But she was a lightning rod for both long distant Louis haters and Louis admirers
Right? I was looking at Wikipedia to see if he'd had a run-in with her, because that seemed rather unlike him. This makes so much sense as fanfic.
ETA: Henri de Catt: See, I wasn't doing anything unusual! It's not like I published my RPF memoirs within my life time, either. Why are you Salonierres all down on me and keep quoting Boswell and Mitchell on how silly I was?
ROTFL!!
I was thinking of Catt's unpublished memoirs, actually!
Well, the real reason we're mad at you, Catt, is because you had us fooled for so long, and no one else reads Koser's preface! (Duffy writes in a footnote that he's not above rearranging his memories for dramatic effect, but then repeatedly quotes Catt unquestioningly throughout the text. NO mention of plagiarizing texts or attributing things to Fritz that Catt didn't get from Fritz.)
Which I realize is unfair. I suppose I need more evidence that 1) you never intended to publish, 2) you fully expected everyone would recognize that it was fanfic, which, considering one of your sources was your diary, is a bit much.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: French, Dutch, and Bavarian Backstories: Fictional annotations
Date: 2021-05-24 05:24 pm (UTC)There's also the fact that Zimmermann, Nicolai and some of the other early anecdote collectors and biographical writers all talked to Henri de Catt, several were told the suicide pill story, and I think Zimmermann at least was aware that Catt either had written or was in the process of writing his own book, may even have read it. All of which argues that Catt did intend to go public, if not within his own life time, then afterwards.
It's interesting in general to wonder how the various unpublished memoirists thought their memoirs were being treated. Sophie of Hanover insists she writes for herself, and within her life time, Leipniz seems to have been the only one who read them (when she gave them to him while he weas working on a general history of her family). If he hadn't made a copy, it's also questionable whether they would still exist, so she took no care to preserve them. Wilhelmine did take the care of making several copies, and the Memoirs, while unfinished, were a work in progress she redraftet at least twice, and where at least in the later part she does seem to intend it to be read (by her daughter, by future readers). (There is for example late in the memoirs a Fritz-critical passage where she asks the readers, plural to withhold their judgment on "the King" until she's finished her story.) So while self therapy was a big motivator, she was aware, and intended, the memoirs to be read at some future point beyond her and Fritz' lifetimes. (Which did indeed happen.) Hervey also definitely intended the Memoirs to be published, but was aware it would/could not happen in his own life time. (He probably hoped they'd be a bombshell torpedoing Fritz' of Wales' reign as King, not knowing FoW wouldn't outlive him for long.) Otoh, he wasn't careful enough, considering his offspring robbed posterity of some chapters. (Whereas Lady Mary knew this kind of thing would happen to her own writings if she just left them with her family and hence left the manuscript of the Embassy Letters in the Netherlands.
Meanwhile, Casanova: had published some autobiographical writings within his life time (the story of his escape from the lead chambers, for example, and the story of a duel), along with non-biographical essays. He probably figured and intended that the Memoirs would be published at some point after his death. But he didn't contact any publishers - and he knew several! - to make sure this would happen, so it might never have if his niece hadn't needed the cash.
Voltaire: you bet. Not even a question. Made sure it would happen, too. Rewrote his letters for good measure.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: French, Dutch, and Bavarian Backstories: Fictional annotations
Date: 2021-05-24 05:53 pm (UTC)Right, right, carrying on with the Catt-mocking tradition.
Rewrote his letters for good measure.
Voltaire: literally THE BEST. I should be mad at him over fooling everyone with Pamela for two hundred years, but it's too hilarious not to forgive. Also, Frankfurt, he had legitimate complaints there! Catt wasn't even trashing Fritz, he was just self-aggrandizing at the expense of innocent people who believed him.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: French, Dutch, and Bavarian Backstories: Fictional annotations
Date: 2021-05-27 05:16 am (UTC)I knoooow, in principle I guess it's pretty similar to Catt, but in practice I'm kind of like LOLOLOLOL you are such a troll! There's honestly just... something about him rewriting an entire suite of letters and arranging for them to be disseminated after his death that... I just gotta admire the sheer over-the-topness that went into that.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: French, Dutch, and Bavarian Backstories: Fictional annotations
Date: 2021-05-27 05:15 am (UTC)LOL! That is great, and is definitely... extremely dramatic in a fanfic kind of way.