I remember you citing this before, but of course I'd forgotten it until you mentioned it again <3 Liselotte! <33
Same here. Now of course she could have been wrong in her guesses as to how many completely straight men existed in Versailles in 1704, but honestly, I'm trusting her more than English wikipedia on this, what with her actually living there! Morever: English wiki brings up Eugene's memoirs (in a different context, for a quote about hating Louis XIV' guts). I hadn't known Eugene wrote any memoirs, so I googled, and lo, he had not, but, see see here, there were several fake memoirs making the rounds in the 18th and early 19th century. Remember, this was a thing. There were also fake memoirs of Madame de Maintenon, for example, which Lehndorff reads at some point in his early diaries. Writing "memoirs" for a dead celebrity was a very profitale enterprise, and in the 18th century, it wasn't like they could sue you for it. (Which is why it wasn't completely irrational when people upon eventual publication of Wilhelmine's memoirs first said it had be be an anti-Prussian forgery until being presented with the manuscript in her handwriting.) However, 21st century dictionaries are supposed to be better versed about which sources are fakes!
Re: Eugene's coolness: Eugene fandom was such a thing in the 18th century that, may I remind you, Fritz' idea of coding his requests for more cash from sugar daddies in his letters was asking for copies of "The Life of Prince Eugene".
However, 21st century dictionaries are supposed to be better versed about which sources are fakes!
They're not! But now I'm proud of myself, for lo, this happened:
I was finishing a book on the battle of Malplaquet yesterday, published in 2020, and it cited the Ligne memoirs of Eugene. I was very surprised, I turned up the memoirs on Google books, read the first couple pages, and went, "This seems fake."
Ha! Thank you for googling this from a scholarly angle and confirming.
Ever since we got burned by Austrian Trenck's not being by Austrian Trenck (per Stollberg-Rilinger), I've been on the alert.
Re: Eugene's coolness: Eugene fandom was such a thing in the 18th century that, may I remind you, Fritz' idea of coding his requests for more cash from sugar daddies in his letters was asking for copies of "The Life of Prince Eugene".
Re: Eugene's coolness, I was trying to get someone to nominate him for Yuletide in 2019!
Aw, man. I just got hit by a nother plot bunny, involving the Not-Antinous statue he and Fritz both owned, which doesn't have to do with the Katte connection. How about it coming to live around gay men of brilliance in their darkest, most lonely hour, and seducing them to cheer them up? Written as a statue pov? Or the statue is an avatar of a Greek deity coming to life only under certain conditions? Some magical realism story?
ETA: also, congratulations on your correct deducement re the Ligne/Eugene book!
So I checked the for free nineteenth century edition of Liselotte's letters - whose editor is a raging late 19th century German nationalist and a slob to boot (seriously, editor, the Chevalier de Lorraine and the Marquis d'Effiat weren't the favourites of Liselotte's son but of her husband!) - and it turns out she has an opinion on William III.'s sexuality to offer.
Background: Liselotte actually had met William as a girl, when her aunt Sophie (of Hannover) had taken her along in a prolonged journey to the Netherlands. She'd hoped to marry him then (as Protestant princes went, he was the top match to have at the time), and continued to have a soft spot for him. This letter, however, was written decades later, in the early 18th century.
It's said here that King William has the dropsy and was lethally ill, but I won't believe it until I hear it from better sources. It would be a shame if such a smart King would only get to rule such a short time. However, what he's been accused of is only too true. When all the young Englishmen who'd come here with Lord Portland the ambassador saw that affairs in Paris are handled just as they are at their own court, they weren't shy to talk about everything which is going on. Supposedly he was so in love with Albermale as with a lady and has kissed his hands in front of everyone. The other big sign that this King is fond of young men is that he doesn't fancy the ladies; for trust me on this, Amelise! men are made in a way that they need to be in love with either or both. The late King Charles (of Britain) only loved women. But there are many who love both; of these, much more are found in this place than of those who have only one inclination. King Charles wasn't just in love with Madame Mazarin but with Madame de Portmouth and with an actress.* Men believe women can't exist without being in love, simply because they themselves are disposed that way. I believe that to love or not to love isn't always up to us; but those who have been given a calm disposition in this regard can thank God as he keeps them from such misery which produces a thousand other miseries as the result. (In a letter from November 1701 to her half sister.)
*She is referring to Hortense Mancini (one of the Mazarin nieces, whose sisters include Olympe, mother of Eugene, and Marie, first great love of Louis), Louise the Duchess of Portsmouth and Nell Gwyn, respectively.
Now, this says more about contemporary gossip than about William's sexuality. (Though Liselotte must have concluded that no matter what, she'd have married a man playing for the other team.) But I find it interesting that while the term "bisexuality" doesn't exist, Liselotte is clearly familiar with the concept and aware that there aren't just straight and gay people around.
Another quote from Liselotte from March 1700, on war heroism, in which she makes a French/German pun that predates Disney lyricists making the same pun in "Hercules" by several centuries: Young people like the King of Denmark (Frederick IV) think they become heroes if they only wage war, and don't consider that it might turn out badly and that if fortune wants it, they become zeroes instead of heroes. ("...sie anstatt des heros nur zeros werden")
On that note, here's Liselotte congratulating Aunt Sophie on the arrival of a new (great)grandkid:
I pay your grace my compliment for the happy delivery of your grandson, the new crown prince of Prussia. May God preserve this prince for many long years. The King in Prussia must be doubly happy, firstly, to have a grandson, and secondly, to have the occasion for another ceremony, of which the baptism of the child surely won't be lacking. (...) The crown princess hasn't been in contractions for long, just three and a half hours, and it can hardly be less, especially since it has found such a good ending.
Obviously F1's fondness for splendor has been heard of in Versailles, too. *g* The letter is dated 14. February 1712, btw, and Fritz was born on January 24th, so you know news from Berlin to Paris took a bit more than two weeks, if we assume Liselotte wrote soon after hearing said news. Since she knows how long exactly Fritz' birth took, you do, too.
And here's Liselotte on Old Dessauer in 1719, on the occasion of what wasn't correct news, about a fallout between FW and his bff. Since 1719 is when the rest of the bonkers Clement affair happens, maybe that was the ocasion for the wrong rumor? The "apothocary" comment refers to him having married the daughter of one. She's also alluding to Peter the Great's second wife, the Czarina Catherine (later Catherine I.), who started out as an illiterate washerwoman.
I hear some news which makes me glad; that the pharmaceutical Prince of Anhalt-Dessau won't be with the King of Prussia anymore. If he and the Czar of Russia will be together, I'm reminded of the old German saying "birds of a feather flock together, says the Devil to the Coal Shoveller". That gentleman has held a speech against my son at Turin which I still haven't gotten over; how much he'd enjoy shooting a bullet into my son's head. The apothocary his wife will of course fit in with the court of the Czarina. Such a man like this Prince can't give any good advice, he's just suited to socialize with lions and tigers and Moscowites who aren't any less savage than he is. I'm still surprised the late King of Prussia allowed this wild nephew of his to befriend his son; of course the later couldn't have learned anything good from this man.
(Liselotte, if you'd known FW in person, you'd have realised he didn't need Old Dessauer to be a thug.)
Speaking of Liselotte commenting on the next generation, remember young Voltaire's first stint in the Bastille for writing a satiric pamphlet claiming Liselotte's son the regent has an incestous affair with his daughter? The following quote from Liselotte (also from 1719) makes it sound like he had that story from his buddy Richelieu:
My son is too good; he can't bear to make himself feared, and his enemies know this only too well. On the day when he'd been obliged to send the young Duc de Richelieu into the Bastille, he's been so sad as if he himself had experienced a calamity. I wish he'd feel less sorry for this bad boy; for the little villain has never shown him any respect and has spread rumors about him and his daughter which would have merited already being sent to the Bastille in addition to his greater crime. But my son just laughs about this and makes me impatient and irritated with himself and his third daughter, that this little fellow amuses them instead of making them angry.
And lastly, Liselotte's opinion on the hygiene of three countries:
This much is certain, anyone who has visited the Netherlands finds Germany dirty; but in order to find Germany clean and pleasant, you just have to travel through France; for nothing stinks more or is more of a pigsty than Paris.
Ha, Old Dessauer showing up in her letters, I would not have expected that. But very entertaining to get another different perspective on our ensemble...
Well, she lived into another age, getting old (also she'd been eleven years younger than her husband to begin with), and she always kept up her correspondence with her German relations, so a comment on any of the Hannovers, F1 or FW, say, would not have surprised me, but I admit I hadn't expected the Old (the not so old) Dessauer to register with her, either. Of course, if he really said in public he'd enjoy putting a bullet into her son's brain, that explains it. Liselotte had her share of criticism of Philippe II (the constant partying and screwing around, the laziness in his pre-Regent days), but she did love her son. (And was proud of him as Regent, writing angrily that he actually had done better for France in a few years than Louis in the last few decades.) She'd take a remark like this personally.
Here' the passage in her glorious baroque German for you: "Dieser Herr hat einen discours bei Turin gegen meinen Sohn geführet, so ich noch auf dem Magen und nicht verdauet habe: mit welcher lust er meinem Sohn eine Pistolkugel in den Kopf jagen wollte. A bit later, she adds: Daß dieser dolle Printz zum Czaaren geht, das wundert mich gar nicht, man findet die ursach in der commedie von Corneille: il est des noeuds secrets, il est des simpaties. Ich finde, daß sie viel simpatien haen: in Grausamkeit, und in geringer heurat."
There's also an SD comment from Liselotte, a few years earlier, 1713, in a letter to her sister Louise:
Ich gestehe, liebe Louise, ich kann nicht vertragen, Teutsche zu finden, die ihre Muttersprach so verachten, daß sie nie mit anderen Teutschen reden oder schreiben wollen, das ärgert mich recht: und die Königin in Preußen, wenn ich sie nicht von jederman loben hörte als eine gar tugendhafte Fürstin, sonsten solte ich fürchten, daß sie mit fremden Sprachen auch der fremden Länder Fehler aprobieren solt. (...)) Um wohl Frantzösch zu schreiben, muß man die Sprach wohl können, sonsten kompts doll heraus.
I take this to mean that SD, who had only just become Queen of, sorry, in Prussia, replied to a "congratulations" letter in French, and that Lieselotte, who'd spent most of her life in France, was of course fluent but still wrote the letters to German correspondents in German, thought this was pretentious, especially since the French in question wasn't even that good. Lord knows what she'd have made of Fritz!
if he really said in public he'd enjoy putting a bullet into her son's brain, that explains it
Yes, and it would not surprise me if he did! But I have to admit, his "geringe Heirat" is a point in his favour in my eyes, i.e. marrying the love of his life instead of a noble woman while keeping "Annelise" as a mistress or something. And according to Wiki, she even got to be regent in his absence.
(Speaking of Old Dessauer - and of German authors tackling Fritzian characters - I recently learned that Karl May of all people wrote several early stories about him. I've read my share of more out-there May novels, but I hadn't encountered these before.)
muß man die Sprach wohl können, sonsten kompts doll heraus
Heeee. Love it. Same is true for German, though! Which means she might have preferred Fritz's French after all. :P (And young Fritz at least might have gotten some leeway, what with having a - German-enforcing - thug as a father, as you put it.)
I have to admit, his "geringe Heirat" is a point in his favour in my eyes
Oh absolutely. It's a very sympathetic deed. In Keppler's Der Vater, FW at one point realises his buddy essentially lives his own dream life - married for love with a woman who loves him back, not one who regards herself blatantly superior to him, sons who adore him and are close to him (and don't complain about their miserable education but are happy about it because they love the manly pursuits of soldiering and hunting and beer etc.), and everyone is a good Christian, too. Leaving fictionalized FW aside, I'm sure given the sheer number of bad marriages, a great many snobs were secretly envious of Old Dessauer having a good one because he'd done the radical thing of marrying the woman he loved regardless of her status.
..Otoh: even if he'd married the bluest of blue blooded ladies, I imagine Liselotte would still have objected of him fantasizing about killing her son! And she has a point re: the cruelty. All those gruesome disciplinary punishments in the Prussian army we've heard and read about, Old Dessauer mostly invented. Even if one justifies this with "well, he created the best army on the continent like that": he had no scruples dragging poor Gundling back to be abused for many years more, either, which wasn't justified by any raison d'état, just by FW's own cruelty (and I'm sure Old Dessauer joined in when the Tabacgie had their regular go at Gundling).
Karl May: I knew he'd done it, because my Dad owns the 72 volumes 1950s/1960s edition from when the Karl May Verlag had moded to Bamberg and started to republish. But I haven't yet read that particular volume in which all the stories are collected (titled,unsurprisingly: Der Alte Dessauer).
Heeee. Love it. Same is true for German, though! Which means she might have preferred Fritz's French after all.
Sure - French was in a very real sense his mother tongue! Re his thug of a father, though, I'm not sure how much of this she had heard. I mean, the first time she hears something about FW, it's when her beloved aunt Sophie writes about how adorable the kid danced ballet! Though clearly by the time of the old Dessauer letter, FW's reputation along with Dessauer's must be making the international rounds, even for old ladies in France, at least to some degree.
Liselotte's own German is of course extravagantly spelled (this being centuries before Duden) and way more informal than her very rare French, and it's hard to get that dimension across in an English translation, though it's part of the charm of her letters. Here she is when Sophie of Hannover has died, writing to her sister Louise again, on July 1st 1714:
(I)ich weiß selbst nicht recht, was ich Euch geschrieben habe, so sehr setzt mich diß abscheuliche Unglück außer mir selber. Diese liebe Churfürstin hat mich durch gero gnädige Schreiben aus mancher Betrübnis und Herzeleydt gezogen, so ich mir hir im land empfunden(...). Ach gott, mir selber hat ma tante oft geschrieben, biß sie einen schleunigen Todt für den besten halte, und dass es eine schlegte sach seye, wenn man im im bett stirbt, den Pater oder Prister auf einer Seydt hatt und den Docktor auf der anderen Seydten und können doch nicht helffen; sie woll es so machen, daß sie dies spectacle nicht geben wolle, hat leyder nur zu wahr gesagt! Ma tante war mein einziger trost in all den Widerwertigkeytten hir, sie machte mir mit ihren lustiggen briefen alles leicht, was mich auch am betrübsten gedaugt hatt, sie hatt mir dadurch bißher dass leben erhalten.
Sophie had died of a stroke while walking through the garden of Herrenhausen, renember. A lighter passage demonstrating Liselotte's baroque German is about her son, not yet a regent, January 1715:
Mein Sohn ist Gott seye danck in vollkommener Gesundheit nun, daß er gestern 5 partien im Ballhaus gespilt hat; daß er ohnmächtig wardt, kam nur darher, daß er, nachdem er sich so dick gefressen wie ein Schindersteff und hernach in einer gar warmen cammer bey dem camin eingeschlaffen war, mit einem gar starcken husten und schnuppen. Wir sind nun gottlob beyde gar woll, und mein Sohn hat mir versprochen, hinfüro geyscheydter zu sein und nicht mehr so abscheulich zu freßen.
But I find it interesting that while the term "bisexuality" doesn't exist, Liselotte is clearly familiar with the concept and aware that there aren't just straight and gay people around.
Oh, yeah, that hadn't occurred to me but that's pretty interesting, and perceptive of her.
I believe that to love or not to love isn't always up to us; but those who have been given a calm disposition in this regard can thank God as he keeps them from such misery which produces a thousand other miseries as the result.
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Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Bleinheim - Gossipy Sexuality Debate
Date: 2021-05-23 08:03 am (UTC)Same here. Now of course she could have been wrong in her guesses as to how many completely straight men existed in Versailles in 1704, but honestly, I'm trusting her more than English wikipedia on this, what with her actually living there! Morever: English wiki brings up Eugene's memoirs (in a different context, for a quote about hating Louis XIV' guts). I hadn't known Eugene wrote any memoirs, so I googled, and lo, he had not, but, see see here, there were several fake memoirs making the rounds in the 18th and early 19th century. Remember, this was a thing. There were also fake memoirs of Madame de Maintenon, for example, which Lehndorff reads at some point in his early diaries. Writing "memoirs" for a dead celebrity was a very profitale enterprise, and in the 18th century, it wasn't like they could sue you for it. (Which is why it wasn't completely irrational when people upon eventual publication of Wilhelmine's memoirs first said it had be be an anti-Prussian forgery until being presented with the manuscript in her handwriting.) However, 21st century dictionaries are supposed to be better versed about which sources are fakes!
Re: Eugene's coolness: Eugene fandom was such a thing in the 18th century that, may I remind you, Fritz' idea of coding his requests for more cash from sugar daddies in his letters was asking for copies of "The Life of Prince Eugene".
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Bleinheim - Gossipy Sexuality Debate
Date: 2021-05-23 12:32 pm (UTC)They're not! But now I'm proud of myself, for lo, this happened:
I was finishing a book on the battle of Malplaquet yesterday, published in 2020, and it cited the Ligne memoirs of Eugene. I was very surprised, I turned up the memoirs on Google books, read the first couple pages, and went, "This seems fake."
Ha! Thank you for googling this from a scholarly angle and confirming.
Ever since we got burned by Austrian Trenck's not being by Austrian Trenck (per Stollberg-Rilinger), I've been on the alert.
Re: Eugene's coolness: Eugene fandom was such a thing in the 18th century that, may I remind you, Fritz' idea of coding his requests for more cash from sugar daddies in his letters was asking for copies of "The Life of Prince Eugene".
Re: Eugene's coolness, I was trying to get someone to nominate him for Yuletide in 2019!
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Bleinheim - Gossipy Sexuality Debate
Date: 2021-05-23 01:27 pm (UTC)ETA: also, congratulations on your correct deducement re the Ligne/Eugene book!
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Bleinheim - Gossipy Sexuality Debate
Date: 2021-05-24 12:28 pm (UTC)Background: Liselotte actually had met William as a girl, when her aunt Sophie (of Hannover) had taken her along in a prolonged journey to the Netherlands. She'd hoped to marry him then (as Protestant princes went, he was the top match to have at the time), and continued to have a soft spot for him. This letter, however, was written decades later, in the early 18th century.
It's said here that King William has the dropsy and was lethally ill, but I won't believe it until I hear it from better sources. It would be a shame if such a smart King would only get to rule such a short time. However, what he's been accused of is only too true. When all the young Englishmen who'd come here with Lord Portland the ambassador saw that affairs in Paris are handled just as they are at their own court, they weren't shy to talk about everything which is going on. Supposedly he was so in love with Albermale as with a lady and has kissed his hands in front of everyone. The other big sign that this King is fond of young men is that he doesn't fancy the ladies; for trust me on this, Amelise! men are made in a way that they need to be in love with either or both. The late King Charles (of Britain) only loved women. But there are many who love both; of these, much more are found in this place than of those who have only one inclination. King Charles wasn't just in love with Madame Mazarin but with Madame de Portmouth and with an actress.* Men believe women can't exist without being in love, simply because they themselves are disposed that way. I believe that to love or not to love isn't always up to us; but those who have been given a calm disposition in this regard can thank God as he keeps them from such misery which produces a thousand other miseries as the result. (In a letter from November 1701 to her half sister.)
*She is referring to Hortense Mancini (one of the Mazarin nieces, whose sisters include Olympe, mother of Eugene, and Marie, first great love of Louis), Louise the Duchess of Portsmouth and Nell Gwyn, respectively.
Now, this says more about contemporary gossip than about William's sexuality. (Though Liselotte must have concluded that no matter what, she'd have married a man playing for the other team.) But I find it interesting that while the term "bisexuality" doesn't exist, Liselotte is clearly familiar with the concept and aware that there aren't just straight and gay people around.
Another quote from Liselotte from March 1700, on war heroism, in which she makes a French/German pun that predates Disney lyricists making the same pun in "Hercules" by several centuries:
Young people like the King of Denmark (Frederick IV) think they become heroes if they only wage war, and don't consider that it might turn out badly and that if fortune wants it, they become zeroes instead of heroes. ("...sie anstatt des heros nur zeros werden")
On that note, here's Liselotte congratulating Aunt Sophie on the arrival of a new (great)grandkid:
I pay your grace my compliment for the happy delivery of your grandson, the new crown prince of Prussia. May God preserve this prince for many long years. The King in Prussia must be doubly happy, firstly, to have a grandson, and secondly, to have the occasion for another ceremony, of which the baptism of the child surely won't be lacking. (...) The crown princess hasn't been in contractions for long, just three and a half hours, and it can hardly be less, especially since it has found such a good ending.
Obviously F1's fondness for splendor has been heard of in Versailles, too. *g* The letter is dated 14. February 1712, btw, and Fritz was born on January 24th, so you know news from Berlin to Paris took a bit more than two weeks, if we assume Liselotte wrote soon after hearing said news. Since she knows how long exactly Fritz' birth took, you do, too.
And here's Liselotte on Old Dessauer in 1719, on the occasion of what wasn't correct news, about a fallout between FW and his bff. Since 1719 is when the rest of the bonkers Clement affair happens, maybe that was the ocasion for the wrong rumor? The "apothocary" comment refers to him having married the daughter of one. She's also alluding to Peter the Great's second wife, the Czarina Catherine (later Catherine I.), who started out as an illiterate washerwoman.
I hear some news which makes me glad; that the pharmaceutical Prince of Anhalt-Dessau won't be with the King of Prussia anymore. If he and the Czar of Russia will be together, I'm reminded of the old German saying "birds of a feather flock together, says the Devil to the Coal Shoveller". That gentleman has held a speech against my son at Turin which I still haven't gotten over; how much he'd enjoy shooting a bullet into my son's head. The apothocary his wife will of course fit in with the court of the Czarina. Such a man like this Prince can't give any good advice, he's just suited to socialize with lions and tigers and Moscowites who aren't any less savage than he is. I'm still surprised the late King of Prussia allowed this wild nephew of his to befriend his son; of course the later couldn't have learned anything good from this man.
(Liselotte, if you'd known FW in person, you'd have realised he didn't need Old Dessauer to be a thug.)
Speaking of Liselotte commenting on the next generation, remember young Voltaire's first stint in the Bastille for writing a satiric pamphlet claiming Liselotte's son the regent has an incestous affair with his daughter? The following quote from Liselotte (also from 1719) makes it sound like he had that story from his buddy Richelieu:
My son is too good; he can't bear to make himself feared, and his enemies know this only too well. On the day when he'd been obliged to send the young Duc de Richelieu into the Bastille, he's been so sad as if he himself had experienced a calamity. I wish he'd feel less sorry for this bad boy; for the little villain has never shown him any respect and has spread rumors about him and his daughter which would have merited already being sent to the Bastille in addition to his greater crime. But my son just laughs about this and makes me impatient and irritated with himself and his third daughter, that this little fellow amuses them instead of making them angry.
And lastly, Liselotte's opinion on the hygiene of three countries:
This much is certain, anyone who has visited the Netherlands finds Germany dirty; but in order to find Germany clean and pleasant, you just have to travel through France; for nothing stinks more or is more of a pigsty than Paris.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Bleinheim - Gossipy Sexuality Debate
Date: 2021-05-24 11:34 pm (UTC)Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Bleinheim - Gossipy Sexuality Debate
Date: 2021-05-25 06:23 am (UTC)Here' the passage in her glorious baroque German for you: "Dieser Herr hat einen discours bei Turin gegen meinen Sohn geführet, so ich noch auf dem Magen und nicht verdauet habe: mit welcher lust er meinem Sohn eine Pistolkugel in den Kopf jagen wollte. A bit later, she adds: Daß dieser dolle Printz zum Czaaren geht, das wundert mich gar nicht, man findet die ursach in der commedie von Corneille: il est des noeuds secrets, il est des simpaties. Ich finde, daß sie viel simpatien haen: in Grausamkeit, und in geringer heurat."
There's also an SD comment from Liselotte, a few years earlier, 1713, in a letter to her sister Louise:
Ich gestehe, liebe Louise, ich kann nicht vertragen, Teutsche zu finden, die ihre Muttersprach so verachten, daß sie nie mit anderen Teutschen reden oder schreiben wollen, das ärgert mich recht: und die Königin in Preußen, wenn ich sie nicht von jederman loben hörte als eine gar tugendhafte Fürstin, sonsten solte ich fürchten, daß sie mit fremden Sprachen auch der fremden Länder Fehler aprobieren solt. (...)) Um wohl Frantzösch zu schreiben, muß man die Sprach wohl können, sonsten kompts doll heraus.
I take this to mean that SD, who had only just become Queen of, sorry, in Prussia, replied to a "congratulations" letter in French, and that Lieselotte, who'd spent most of her life in France, was of course fluent but still wrote the letters to German correspondents in German, thought this was pretentious, especially since the French in question wasn't even that good. Lord knows what she'd have made of Fritz!
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Bleinheim - Gossipy Sexuality Debate
Date: 2021-05-25 08:37 am (UTC)Yes, and it would not surprise me if he did! But I have to admit, his "geringe Heirat" is a point in his favour in my eyes, i.e. marrying the love of his life instead of a noble woman while keeping "Annelise" as a mistress or something. And according to Wiki, she even got to be regent in his absence.
(Speaking of Old Dessauer - and of German authors tackling Fritzian characters - I recently learned that Karl May of all people wrote several early stories about him. I've read my share of more out-there May novels, but I hadn't encountered these before.)
muß man die Sprach wohl können, sonsten kompts doll heraus
Heeee. Love it. Same is true for German, though! Which means she might have preferred Fritz's French after all. :P (And young Fritz at least might have gotten some leeway, what with having a - German-enforcing - thug as a father, as you put it.)
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Bleinheim - Gossipy Sexuality Debate
Date: 2021-05-26 08:25 am (UTC)Oh absolutely. It's a very sympathetic deed. In Keppler's Der Vater, FW at one point realises his buddy essentially lives his own dream life - married for love with a woman who loves him back, not one who regards herself blatantly superior to him, sons who adore him and are close to him (and don't complain about their miserable education but are happy about it because they love the manly pursuits of soldiering and hunting and beer etc.), and everyone is a good Christian, too. Leaving fictionalized FW aside, I'm sure given the sheer number of bad marriages, a great many snobs were secretly envious of Old Dessauer having a good one because he'd done the radical thing of marrying the woman he loved regardless of her status.
..Otoh: even if he'd married the bluest of blue blooded ladies, I imagine Liselotte would still have objected of him fantasizing about killing her son! And she has a point re: the cruelty. All those gruesome disciplinary punishments in the Prussian army we've heard and read about, Old Dessauer mostly invented. Even if one justifies this with "well, he created the best army on the continent like that": he had no scruples dragging poor Gundling back to be abused for many years more, either, which wasn't justified by any raison d'état, just by FW's own cruelty (and I'm sure Old Dessauer joined in when the Tabacgie had their regular go at Gundling).
Karl May: I knew he'd done it, because my Dad owns the 72 volumes 1950s/1960s edition from when the Karl May Verlag had moded to Bamberg and started to republish. But I haven't yet read that particular volume in which all the stories are collected (titled,unsurprisingly: Der Alte Dessauer).
Heeee. Love it. Same is true for German, though! Which means she might have preferred Fritz's French after all.
Sure - French was in a very real sense his mother tongue! Re his thug of a father, though, I'm not sure how much of this she had heard. I mean, the first time she hears something about FW, it's when her beloved aunt Sophie writes about how adorable the kid danced ballet! Though clearly by the time of the old Dessauer letter, FW's reputation along with Dessauer's must be making the international rounds, even for old ladies in France, at least to some degree.
Liselotte's own German is of course extravagantly spelled (this being centuries before Duden) and way more informal than her very rare French, and it's hard to get that dimension across in an English translation, though it's part of the charm of her letters. Here she is when Sophie of Hannover has died, writing to her sister Louise again, on July 1st 1714:
(I)ich weiß selbst nicht recht, was ich Euch geschrieben habe, so sehr setzt mich diß abscheuliche Unglück außer mir selber. Diese liebe Churfürstin hat mich durch gero gnädige Schreiben aus mancher Betrübnis und Herzeleydt gezogen, so ich mir hir im land empfunden(...). Ach gott, mir selber hat ma tante oft geschrieben, biß sie einen schleunigen Todt für den besten halte, und dass es eine schlegte sach seye, wenn man im im bett stirbt, den Pater oder Prister auf einer Seydt hatt und den Docktor auf der anderen Seydten und können doch nicht helffen; sie woll es so machen, daß sie dies spectacle nicht geben wolle, hat leyder nur zu wahr gesagt! Ma tante war mein einziger trost in all den Widerwertigkeytten hir, sie machte mir mit ihren lustiggen briefen alles leicht, was mich auch am betrübsten gedaugt hatt, sie hatt mir dadurch bißher dass leben erhalten.
Sophie had died of a stroke while walking through the garden of Herrenhausen, renember. A lighter passage demonstrating Liselotte's baroque German is about her son, not yet a regent, January 1715:
Mein Sohn ist Gott seye danck in vollkommener Gesundheit nun, daß er gestern 5 partien im Ballhaus gespilt hat; daß er ohnmächtig wardt, kam nur darher, daß er, nachdem er sich so dick gefressen wie ein Schindersteff und hernach in einer gar warmen cammer bey dem camin eingeschlaffen war, mit einem gar starcken husten und schnuppen. Wir sind nun gottlob beyde gar woll, und mein Sohn hat mir versprochen, hinfüro geyscheydter zu sein und nicht mehr so abscheulich zu freßen.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Bleinheim - Gossipy Sexuality Debate
Date: 2021-05-27 04:45 am (UTC)Oh, yeah, that hadn't occurred to me but that's pretty interesting, and perceptive of her.
I believe that to love or not to love isn't always up to us; but those who have been given a calm disposition in this regard can thank God as he keeps them from such misery which produces a thousand other miseries as the result.
Heh. That whole letter seems very perceptive.