Considering pages otherwise made a smooth transition into the army from FW's day onwards once they had aged out of their page days, for which no departure money would have been necessary, it can't have been a standard transition, either.
is really interesting!
So what we have is:
- Lehndorff's account of the fraternal showdown, stating that Marwitz was a page at the time. - The letters from Fritz dating that episode to early 1746. - Henckel's memoirs saying that quartermaster Marwitz started out as a page and was sometimes in favor with Fritz and sometimes not. - The obelisk saying that quartermaster Marwitz was in his 36th year when he died in 1759. - Evidence of a page named Marwitz receiving severance pay in 1746.
So that's either tentative evidence that we have a page who was 21/22 in 1746, or, as you pointed out, the multiple Keith pages might be paralleled by multiple Marwitz pages. Quartermaster Marwitz could still be the 1742 Marwitz page, replaced by a younger brother/cousin who was *also* in and out of favor (maybe sexy charisma runs in the family :P). You did comment on the fact that Henckel doesn't seem to know anything about a relationship between Heinrich and Marwitz, and you concluded, "Which probably says something about the different types of relationships Heinrich has with Lehndorff and Henckel respectively."
But maybe we have two separate pages here, and the quartermaster *isn't* the one Fritz accused of having gonorrhea.
Incidentally, remember when we discussed whether the quartermaster who refused to set up camp at Hochkirch was obelisk quartermaster Marwitz? I've found at least one account (not contemporary) that says it was, namely the memoirs of Friedrich August Ludwig von der Marwitz, born 1777. Younger Marwitz says he has the story from his great uncle, Lt. General Béville, and that Black Marwitz = Quartermaster Marwitz = Hochkirch Marwitz.
Younger Marwitz doesn't have the quartermaster getting locked up or otherwise punished for his disobedience, though. Ah, yes, it's Catt who has Marwitz getting arrested. (I did remember Catt talking to a Marwitz about how he'd refused to do what Fritz told him at Hochkirch, but I'd forgotten the details.)
Okay, found my way back to the German Wikipedia article on Georg Wilhelm, which claims that Georg Wilhelm = Black Marwitz = page in 1746 = Quartermaster at Hochkirch = Obelisk Quartermaster. If not for the age of the page in 1746, I wouldn't even be questioning it!
Wikipedia says Marwitz the memoir-writer is whitewashing his relative's fate by not having him arrested, but how much you want to bet Wikipedia just blindly trusts Catt? Anyway, Henckel and Catt have Marwitz as a captain in 1758; memoir-writer Marwitz has him as a major, but he could have been a major when he died in 1759, since that's the next rank up. That would mean he got a promotion between October 1758, day of being right when Fritz was wrong, and 1759, year of dying.
Wikipedia cites Droysen as the source for Georg Wilhelm being the name of dying-in-1759 Marwitz.
OH. Look at this. That index points me to page 385 of this volume of the Political Correspondence, where Fritz is writing to Heinrich that "Marwitz vient de mourir à Landshut d'une fièvre chaude mêlée de rougeole." So obelisk Marwitz didn't die in a battle. I mean, dying of fever mixed with measles in camp was far more common than dying in battle!
Okay, so 1742 page Marwitz is Georg Wilhelm, according to the archives. Dying-in-1759 Marwitz is known to Fritz and Heinrich as just "Marwitz", no qualification needed (and given the size of that family, that's something!).
Maaaybe 1746 severance pay-receiving page Marwitz = 1742 page Georg Wilhelm Marwitz. Which would mean we have a 22-year old page in 1746, but okay. Peter Keith was 19 and got a surprise promotion less than 4 months before his 20th birthday because of his plans to run away with Fritz. He might well have turned 20 in office.
I'm tentatively going with Antony's first names being Georg Wilhelm. :)
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Inconclusive Marwitz detective work
Date: 2021-06-05 03:54 pm (UTC)Considering pages otherwise made a smooth transition into the army from FW's day onwards once they had aged out of their page days, for which no departure money would have been necessary, it can't have been a standard transition, either.
is really interesting!
So what we have is:
- Lehndorff's account of the fraternal showdown, stating that Marwitz was a page at the time.
- The letters from Fritz dating that episode to early 1746.
- Henckel's memoirs saying that quartermaster Marwitz started out as a page and was sometimes in favor with Fritz and sometimes not.
- The obelisk saying that quartermaster Marwitz was in his 36th year when he died in 1759.
- Evidence of a page named Marwitz receiving severance pay in 1746.
So that's either tentative evidence that we have a page who was 21/22 in 1746, or, as you pointed out, the multiple Keith pages might be paralleled by multiple Marwitz pages. Quartermaster Marwitz could still be the 1742 Marwitz page, replaced by a younger brother/cousin who was *also* in and out of favor (maybe sexy charisma runs in the family :P). You did comment on the fact that Henckel doesn't seem to know anything about a relationship between Heinrich and Marwitz, and you concluded, "Which probably says something about the different types of relationships Heinrich has with Lehndorff and Henckel respectively."
But maybe we have two separate pages here, and the quartermaster *isn't* the one Fritz accused of having gonorrhea.
Incidentally, remember when we discussed whether the quartermaster who refused to set up camp at Hochkirch was obelisk quartermaster Marwitz? I've found at least one account (not contemporary) that says it was, namely the memoirs of Friedrich August Ludwig von der Marwitz, born 1777. Younger Marwitz says he has the story from his great uncle, Lt. General Béville, and that Black Marwitz = Quartermaster Marwitz = Hochkirch Marwitz.
Younger Marwitz doesn't have the quartermaster getting locked up or otherwise punished for his disobedience, though. Ah, yes, it's Catt who has Marwitz getting arrested. (I did remember Catt talking to a Marwitz about how he'd refused to do what Fritz told him at Hochkirch, but I'd forgotten the details.)
Okay, found my way back to the German Wikipedia article on Georg Wilhelm, which claims that Georg Wilhelm = Black Marwitz = page in 1746 = Quartermaster at Hochkirch = Obelisk Quartermaster. If not for the age of the page in 1746, I wouldn't even be questioning it!
Wikipedia says Marwitz the memoir-writer is whitewashing his relative's fate by not having him arrested, but how much you want to bet Wikipedia just blindly trusts Catt? Anyway, Henckel and Catt have Marwitz as a captain in 1758; memoir-writer Marwitz has him as a major, but he could have been a major when he died in 1759, since that's the next rank up. That would mean he got a promotion between October 1758, day of being right when Fritz was wrong, and 1759, year of dying.
Wikipedia cites Droysen as the source for Georg Wilhelm being the name of dying-in-1759 Marwitz.
OH. Look at this. That index points me to page 385 of this volume of the Political Correspondence, where Fritz is writing to Heinrich that "Marwitz vient de mourir à Landshut d'une fièvre chaude mêlée de rougeole." So obelisk Marwitz didn't die in a battle. I mean, dying of fever mixed with measles in camp was far more common than dying in battle!
Okay, so 1742 page Marwitz is Georg Wilhelm, according to the archives. Dying-in-1759 Marwitz is known to Fritz and Heinrich as just "Marwitz", no qualification needed (and given the size of that family, that's something!).
Maaaybe 1746 severance pay-receiving page Marwitz = 1742 page Georg Wilhelm Marwitz. Which would mean we have a 22-year old page in 1746, but okay. Peter Keith was 19 and got a surprise promotion less than 4 months before his 20th birthday because of his plans to run away with Fritz. He might well have turned 20 in office.
I'm tentatively going with Antony's first names being Georg Wilhelm. :)