re: Schöning, for which much thanks to felis, I'll have to do a write up with quotes, because it contains very detailed information about Fritz' day-to-day schedule, habits etc. during the last decades of his life, some of which we knew and some is new (to me), but for now, I wanted to reassure you that regular mustard in the coffee is most definitely canon, according to Schöning.
Also, the early 19th century editor with his comments is very early 19th century - this being 1808, he's suffering from the national humiliation of Prussia having been beaten by Napoleon, so thinking about the Fritzian glory days is great, but he does slightly chide Fritz for his Schöning-testified attitude towards religion, saying that the great King could not see where all this encouragement of mockery of religion would lead to, the horrible excesses from which consequences we're all suffering today. (He means the French Revolution, without which no Napoleon.)
Btw, since we've discussed Catt's claim that Fritz had an inner believer waiting to emerge and changed his mind about the immortality of the soul in his last years, Schöning says he did not, that he thought the soul was gone after death, but that he did believe in God.
Another thing where attitude of 19th century editor and attitude of 18th century citizen Schöning clash is this:
Schöning (on exceptions from Fritz' general miserliness): "Now and then the King did waste huge sums on unworthy people; his motivation shall not be mentioned here."
Editor in footnote: "Whatever motivation could be so shady that the author cannot spell it out here? Surely it can't be certain that if the sum went to unworthy people the King knew them to be unworthy? Doesn't it make more sense to assume that he misjudged them?"
Heinrich: I am very loudly not commenting on this.
Of course, we are 21st century cynics, but somehow I doubt either late 18th or early 19th century readers would have read this about "his motivation shall not be mentioned here" and then the upset editor footnoting with "what do yoiu mean UNLAUTERE MOTIVATION?!?!" just in case we missed it, and not come to a certain conclusion as to who the unworthy people must have been, or at least of which type. Especially since the book also takes care to mention Fritz had no time for women, with a very few exceptions, and considered the entire sex as a necessary evil for procreation and no more, while hating on his staff marrying or just having romances with women.
(BTW, perhaps not unimportant to mention here: Schöning was married. Not that he mentions it in this volume, but elsewhere when the story about his providing Fritz with a good clean shirt for burial is told, it's also mentioned that said shirt was a wedding present from his (Schöning's) bride.)
Seriously, the more I learn about Fritz' pretty hussars (Schöning excepted), the more I realise he and Heinrich had even more in common than I had thought. :)
Also: Deist, not Atheist. Fritz and Voltaire believed there was a God who started everything, just that the world and its people then were left to their own devices, basically. (BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson, which makes all the super Christianity of the US thereafter allied to a cult of the Founders super ironic.)
Yeah, I super remember you and mildred telling me about Voltaire being Deist and therefore believing in God but not in an afterlife -- which actually really resonated with me at the time for reasons too complex for me to go into right before my bedtime, so I'm not likely to forget that even if I wasn't (still, slowly) reading Orieux -- and I am absolutely sure you guys must have mentioned Fritz being Deist too at the time, but somehow my brain retained that Voltaire was Deist and not Fritz?? IDK, I really like Voltaire, I guess :P
BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson
Yeah, the funny thing is, like mildred I learned Jefferson was a Deist in school but they never really went into Deism very much -- I knew Deists didn't believe in organized religion but I would have assumed they believed in an afterlife until, well, last year :P
What Selena said! If you got the impression he was an atheist from my fic, that was extremely unintentional on my part. It's probably due to the fact that Deism was common in the 18th century but uncommon now, so people whose beliefs overlap with Fritz's nowadays are atheists.
But Fritz was always a Deist, as Schöning describes, believing in a prime mover but not in an afterlife. I will give Catt credit for describing that correctly: he always has Fritz professing belief in God but not immortality of the soul. The part where Catt's bias creeps in is that he adds things, like, "Well, naturally Fritz had doubts, and argued so much not because he wanted to convince me, but because he wanted me to convince him! And naturally he started coming around! He wanted to see his mother and sister, after all. And naturally he was confused and very superstitious, which is what happens when you don't have Christianity to prevent you from erring."
Remember that Diderot was unusual for his time in being a straight up atheist, and he didn't want to meet Voltaire because Voltaire was going to try to convert him, and he did not wish to be converted, and they had lots of written exchanges before they finally met. Fritz and Voltaire were on the same page about religion.
This is also the context in which Voltaire pointedly dedicates his church to "God" and says it's the only one, with the rest being dedicated to saints--that was a Deist jab at Christianity, especially Catholicism.
BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson, which makes all the super Christianity of the US thereafter allied to a cult of the Founders super ironic.
Indeed, this is where I learned about Deism in school even before I encountered it on my own, and in fact managed to be a Deist for a few months in high school. ;)
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timeasmymeasure
Schöning, first impressions
Date: 2021-02-28 08:42 am (UTC)Also, the early 19th century editor with his comments is very early 19th century - this being 1808, he's suffering from the national humiliation of Prussia having been beaten by Napoleon, so thinking about the Fritzian glory days is great, but he does slightly chide Fritz for his Schöning-testified attitude towards religion, saying that the great King could not see where all this encouragement of mockery of religion would lead to, the horrible excesses from which consequences we're all suffering today. (He means the French Revolution, without which no Napoleon.)
Btw, since we've discussed Catt's claim that Fritz had an inner believer waiting to emerge and changed his mind about the immortality of the soul in his last years, Schöning says he did not, that he thought the soul was gone after death, but that he did believe in God.
Another thing where attitude of 19th century editor and attitude of 18th century citizen Schöning clash is this:
Schöning (on exceptions from Fritz' general miserliness): "Now and then the King did waste huge sums on unworthy people; his motivation shall not be mentioned here."
Editor in footnote: "Whatever motivation could be so shady that the author cannot spell it out here? Surely it can't be certain that if the sum went to unworthy people the King knew them to be unworthy? Doesn't it make more sense to assume that he misjudged them?"
Heinrich: I am very loudly not commenting on this.
Re: Schöning, first impressions
Date: 2021-02-28 02:13 pm (UTC):DDD
But also, interesting that Schöning mentions that. (Not so interesting that he is too polite to expand on it. :P)
Re: Schöning, first impressions
Date: 2021-02-28 04:06 pm (UTC)(BTW, perhaps not unimportant to mention here: Schöning was married. Not that he mentions it in this volume, but elsewhere when the story about his providing Fritz with a good clean shirt for burial is told, it's also mentioned that said shirt was a wedding present from his (Schöning's) bride.)
Re: Schöning, first impressions
Date: 2021-03-03 06:21 am (UTC)I thought he was an atheist? (Also probably due to Mildred's fic.) But anyway this is much more believable than Catt :PP
Heinrich: I am very loudly not commenting on this.
HEEEEE.
Re: Schöning, first impressions
Date: 2021-03-03 06:47 am (UTC)Also: Deist, not Atheist. Fritz and Voltaire believed there was a God who started everything, just that the world and its people then were left to their own devices, basically. (BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson, which makes all the super Christianity of the US thereafter allied to a cult of the Founders super ironic.)
Re: Schöning, first impressions
Date: 2021-03-04 06:33 am (UTC)BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson
Yeah, the funny thing is, like mildred I learned Jefferson was a Deist in school but they never really went into Deism very much -- I knew Deists didn't believe in organized religion but I would have assumed they believed in an afterlife until, well, last year :P
Re: Schöning, first impressions
Date: 2021-03-03 01:28 pm (UTC)But Fritz was always a Deist, as Schöning describes, believing in a prime mover but not in an afterlife. I will give Catt credit for describing that correctly: he always has Fritz professing belief in God but not immortality of the soul. The part where Catt's bias creeps in is that he adds things, like, "Well, naturally Fritz had doubts, and argued so much not because he wanted to convince me, but because he wanted me to convince him! And naturally he started coming around! He wanted to see his mother and sister, after all. And naturally he was confused and very superstitious, which is what happens when you don't have Christianity to prevent you from erring."
Remember that Diderot was unusual for his time in being a straight up atheist, and he didn't want to meet Voltaire because Voltaire was going to try to convert him, and he did not wish to be converted, and they had lots of written exchanges before they finally met. Fritz and Voltaire were on the same page about religion.
This is also the context in which Voltaire pointedly dedicates his church to "God" and says it's the only one, with the rest being dedicated to saints--that was a Deist jab at Christianity, especially Catholicism.
BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson, which makes all the super Christianity of the US thereafter allied to a cult of the Founders super ironic.
Indeed, this is where I learned about Deism in school even before I encountered it on my own, and in fact managed to be a Deist for a few months in high school. ;)