Okay, so I think Nicolai's source is Friedrich Leopold von Hertefeld, son of Ludwig Casimir von Hertefeld. Who doesn't have wiki entry of his own, but Fontane is helpful in this case, see these excerpts, which cover Ludwig Casimir. Most important bit translated:
Ludwig Casimir was born in 1709 and joined the Gensdarmes regiment in 1728, so he was a regimental comrade of Hans Hermann von Katte for two more years. In 1743, after having participated in the First Silesian War, he resigned from the service. Again seven years later, in 1750, he became chamberlain to the widowed Queen Sophie Dorothee, mother of Frederick the Great, and remained in this position until her death in 1757.
Fontane also says he was into books and built a library building on his Liebenberg estate. He went back to Boetzlaer (near Xanten and Kleve) in 1777 and died in 1790.
So I strongly suspect that he got to know Peter while he was chamberlain for SD.
Lehndorff by the way? Not impressed:
April 15th, 1753. I get up at three to go to Potsdam; a journey I would dislike if I wouldn't find my dear Prince Heinrich there. My travelling companion is Herr v. Hertefeld, chamberlain of the queen-mother, a very unpleasant man and a babbler ["Schwätzer"] like a woman.
and:
April 4th, 1756. [...] He is a guy who is judged unfavourably by people. He left service during the war und spent six years living quietly on his estate. Finally the queen-mother chose him for chamberlain on recommendation of Chancellor [Cocceji]'s wife, who is his wife's sister, an excellent, witty, and amiable woman, only her voice has something from a dragoon.
Von Hertefeld's wife = Susanne von Bechefer (see this wiki article about v. Hertefeld's father Samuel, who himself held a couple of positions during FW's time). I think Lehndorff is still talking about Cocceji's wife with his description, it's a bit ambiguous even in German, but he definitely likes v. Hertefeld's wife a lot more than the guy, see also this entry from September the same year: Hertefeld with his special gift to bore his listeners only likes those who have the patience to listen to him. and again in December: the man is as unpleasant as his wife is the opposite. One of their daughters seems to have been lady-in-waiting with EC, Lehndorff mentions her quite a lot. Fontane says that's the only daughter they had, so I'm not sure how and if they are also related to the young lady who was with Amalie and died young of tuberculosis, which apparently inspired Fritz to write a poem to Amalie in 1770. ETA: Oh, I just realized that Fontane said they only had one daughter by the time Luwdig Casimir died, so I guess the woman who died in 1770 might have been his daughter as well.
Lehndorff also lists v. Hertefeld as one of the guys who carried AW's coffin.
Good old Fontane! I bow to your brilliance in checking there.
Lehndorff by the way? Not impressed:
LOL. I must admit, it never fails to amuse me that there are two things you can rely on when reading Lehndorff:
a) sooner or later, Heinrich will be mentioned, and
b) If Lehndorff comes into contact with someone who theoretically could tell him interesting stories about Hans Herrmann von Katte, he will dislike this person.
I mean: - cousin Ludolf: terrible husband to The One Who Got Away - cousin Wartensleben: miser, sugar hoarder, pouncer on chambermaids when younger and spy when old - Staatsminister von Katte: boo, hiss, evil redhead - and now: Hertefeld, former regiment comrade, experienced the arrest first hand, has books from Katte: what a bore!
It's as if he's postumously determined to frustrate Mildred, verily. Lehndorff being Team Keith all the way might make up for it, though?
Aw, I can't take the credit for that - I found the (grand)father's wiki page first, took an educated guess which of the three sons might be the one in question, and when I googled his full name, Fontane was basically the first thing that came up. But it was a nice reminder indeed that he put some research in when it comes to Brandenburg and its history.
Love your take-away from the Lehndorff quotes, hee.
- cousin Ludolf: terrible husband to The One Who Got Away
I mean, judging by your Wust historian, he apparently was! In that she left Wust as soon as he died, took the remaining kid(s), and never looked back.
- cousin Wartensleben: miser, sugar hoarder, pouncer on chambermaids when younger and spy when old
Nitpick: this is another cousin-aged uncle, 3 years younger than Katte. Grandpa Wartensleben was *really* of the "go forth and multiply" persuasion, with 13 kids who made it to adulthood, with a 32-year spread between the first and last. Thus brother to the 6 most loved guy who was on the Strasbourg trip and a suspect for a Manteuffel informer.
It's as if he's postumously determined to frustrate Mildred, verily.
LEHNDORFF!! *shakes fist*
More seriously, I laughed when I read this. Admittedly I was a little distracted from reading on my phone while multitasking at work, but I hadn't actually noticed that this pattern was striking again! I'm touched that you were so alert on my behalf. ;)
Lehndorff being Team Keith all the way might make up for it, though?
You know, it kinda does. We know increasingly more and more about Katte (thanks largely to you!) and very little about Keith, and it *is* good to have Lehndorff's input. Especially the part about Keith being a Lehndorff's idea of a role model for young people; that means something coming from Lehndorff in his diary in a way that Formey's encomia don't.
So I am grateful for Lehndorff's different perspective.
Still! Lehndorff, it's possible to be Team Katte and Team Keith; look at me! (I even got Mobster AU author to ship them for me!)
Thank you! Just as salon came around just at the right time when I needed a distraction from medical woes, you came around just at the right time when they're starting to let up and I'm working again and have less time to play detective! Salon would clearly have lost a lot of momentum without me and cahn to play off the ever active selenak, but you've been doing a bang-up job of helping her keep it going so the rest of us can have something to enjoy and to participate in when we have time. :D <3
So I strongly suspect that he got to know Peter while he was chamberlain for SD.
Agreed, and in 1750, Hanway says Fritz put Peter near the Queen Mother when he returned to Berlin (I suspect his Hofstallmeister position was at her court). Even if ten years later, he's not any more because he has other duties, that might still have been something that led to them having many contacts in common and getting to know each other, added to liking books and having 1730 in common (if from opposite sides, as it were).
Peter getting to know someone who was friends with Katte and who was responsible for guarding him under arrest...that must have been a trip akin to Fritz reading the archives.
Do we know if Hertefeld was an Academy member? That was one of the things I was going to look into if I had time.
re: Academy - he wasn't. The site with the Academy records also has a name index for everyone ever mentioned in those records and he doesn't show up once, not even as a guest.
Hertefeld with his special gift to bore his listeners only likes those who have the patience to listen to him.
Heh! Lehndorff can certainly paint a word-portrait in a sentence :)
That poem is pretty long :P And I didn't read it carefully (and stuck it into google translate, because I am way too short on time this week :( ) but although it could certainly be a lot worse (*cough*Heinrich *cough*EC) I still feel like Fritz could use a refresher on the ring theory of grief, and find myself wondering how Amalie took it...
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timeasmymeasure
Hertefelds
Date: 2021-02-25 01:06 pm (UTC)Ludwig Casimir was born in 1709 and joined the Gensdarmes regiment in 1728, so he was a regimental comrade of Hans Hermann von Katte for two more years. In 1743, after having participated in the First Silesian War, he resigned from the service. Again seven years later, in 1750, he became chamberlain to the widowed Queen Sophie Dorothee, mother of Frederick the Great, and remained in this position until her death in 1757.
Fontane also says he was into books and built a library building on his Liebenberg estate. He went back to Boetzlaer (near Xanten and Kleve) in 1777 and died in 1790.
So I strongly suspect that he got to know Peter while he was chamberlain for SD.
Lehndorff by the way? Not impressed:
April 15th, 1753. I get up at three to go to Potsdam; a journey I would dislike if I wouldn't find my dear Prince Heinrich there. My travelling companion is Herr v. Hertefeld, chamberlain of the queen-mother, a very unpleasant man and a babbler ["Schwätzer"] like a woman.
and:
April 4th, 1756. [...] He is a guy who is judged unfavourably by people. He left service during the war und spent six years living quietly on his estate. Finally the queen-mother chose him for chamberlain on recommendation of Chancellor [Cocceji]'s wife, who is his wife's sister, an excellent, witty, and amiable woman, only her voice has something from a dragoon.
Von Hertefeld's wife = Susanne von Bechefer (see this wiki article about v. Hertefeld's father Samuel, who himself held a couple of positions during FW's time).
I think Lehndorff is still talking about Cocceji's wife with his description, it's a bit ambiguous even in German, but he definitely likes v. Hertefeld's wife a lot more than the guy, see also this entry from September the same year: Hertefeld with his special gift to bore his listeners only likes those who have the patience to listen to him. and again in December: the man is as unpleasant as his wife is the opposite. One of their daughters seems to have been lady-in-waiting with EC, Lehndorff mentions her quite a lot.
Fontane says that's the only daughter they had, so I'm not sure how and if they are also related to the young lady who was with Amalie and died young of tuberculosis, which apparently inspired Fritz to write a poem to Amalie in 1770. ETA: Oh, I just realized that Fontane said they only had one daughter by the time Luwdig Casimir died, so I guess the woman who died in 1770 might have been his daughter as well.Lehndorff also lists v. Hertefeld as one of the guys who carried AW's coffin.
Re: Hertefelds
Date: 2021-02-25 04:35 pm (UTC)Lehndorff by the way? Not impressed:
LOL. I must admit, it never fails to amuse me that there are two things you can rely on when reading Lehndorff:
a) sooner or later, Heinrich will be mentioned, and
b) If Lehndorff comes into contact with someone who theoretically could tell him interesting stories about Hans Herrmann von Katte, he will dislike this person.
I mean:
- cousin Ludolf: terrible husband to The One Who Got Away
- cousin Wartensleben: miser, sugar hoarder, pouncer on chambermaids when younger and spy when old
- Staatsminister von Katte: boo, hiss, evil redhead
- and now: Hertefeld, former regiment comrade, experienced the arrest first hand, has books from Katte: what a bore!
It's as if he's postumously determined to frustrate Mildred, verily. Lehndorff being Team Keith all the way might make up for it, though?
Re: Hertefelds
Date: 2021-02-25 07:35 pm (UTC)Love your take-away from the Lehndorff quotes, hee.
Re: Hertefelds
Date: 2021-02-26 12:17 am (UTC)- cousin Ludolf: terrible husband to The One Who Got Away
I mean, judging by your Wust historian, he apparently was! In that she left Wust as soon as he died, took the remaining kid(s), and never looked back.
- cousin Wartensleben: miser, sugar hoarder, pouncer on chambermaids when younger and spy when old
Nitpick: this is another cousin-aged uncle, 3 years younger than Katte. Grandpa Wartensleben was *really* of the "go forth and multiply" persuasion, with 13 kids who made it to adulthood, with a 32-year spread between the first and last. Thus brother to the 6 most loved guy who was on the Strasbourg trip and a suspect for a Manteuffel informer.
It's as if he's postumously determined to frustrate Mildred, verily.
LEHNDORFF!! *shakes fist*
More seriously, I laughed when I read this. Admittedly I was a little distracted from reading on my phone while multitasking at work, but I hadn't actually noticed that this pattern was striking again! I'm touched that you were so alert on my behalf. ;)
Lehndorff being Team Keith all the way might make up for it, though?
You know, it kinda does. We know increasingly more and more about Katte (thanks largely to you!) and very little about Keith, and it *is* good to have Lehndorff's input. Especially the part about Keith being a Lehndorff's idea of a role model for young people; that means something coming from Lehndorff in his diary in a way that Formey's encomia don't.
So I am grateful for Lehndorff's different perspective.
Still! Lehndorff, it's possible to be Team Katte and Team Keith; look at me! (I even got Mobster AU author to ship them for me!)
Re: Hertefelds
Date: 2021-02-26 12:04 am (UTC)So I strongly suspect that he got to know Peter while he was chamberlain for SD.
Agreed, and in 1750, Hanway says Fritz put Peter near the Queen Mother when he returned to Berlin (I suspect his Hofstallmeister position was at her court). Even if ten years later, he's not any more because he has other duties, that might still have been something that led to them having many contacts in common and getting to know each other, added to liking books and having 1730 in common (if from opposite sides, as it were).
Peter getting to know someone who was friends with Katte and who was responsible for guarding him under arrest...that must have been a trip akin to Fritz reading the archives.
Do we know if Hertefeld was an Academy member? That was one of the things I was going to look into if I had time.
Re: Hertefelds
Date: 2021-02-26 12:25 am (UTC)Re: Hertefelds
Date: 2021-02-26 12:27 am (UTC)Re: Hertefelds
Date: 2021-02-26 06:19 am (UTC)Hertefeld with his special gift to bore his listeners only likes those who have the patience to listen to him.
Heh! Lehndorff can certainly paint a word-portrait in a sentence :)
That poem is pretty long :P And I didn't read it carefully (and stuck it into google translate, because I am way too short on time this week :( ) but although it could certainly be a lot worse (*cough*Heinrich *cough*EC) I still feel like Fritz could use a refresher on the ring theory of grief, and find myself wondering how Amalie took it...