Just think of everyone, from Grandma Sophie Charlotte to Fritz to Leopold Mozart through the 18th century fangirling and fanboying Fénelon's bestseller on how to be a good prince and good young man in general.
But Grandma Sophie Charlotte and Fritz were cool with people converting to Catholicism for the sake of a royal marriage! Most Protestants were! It takes FW-level piety to object to that, and Katte seems to have needed that argument in order to risk his neck helping get Fritz out of Prussia. Would Oliver Cromwell have traveled to Madrid to visit the Catholic who mentored him? :P
I think more convincing analogy is the two millennia of hardcore Christians who managed to venerate various pagans but would have died (or killed :P) rather than see anyone give up Christianity.
However, I find your arguments about the non-religious motives Katte might have had about how this is going to affect Fritz's future and his relations with his father very convincing. You have saved my fanfic! (I can ignore Katte's last-minute return to devout Protestantism, as it was triggered by events that don't happen in my AU, yay.)
he doesn't even have to be a hardcore Protestant, but a good friend to Fritz, to find this prospect deeply alarming, if it's any consolation to you.
It's extremely consoling, thank you. :)
well, here's another example of a childhood imprint of "this faith is vile" surviving far beyond believing in the other faith: good old Voltaire.
Yeah, and for all that Fritz had a Catholic church built, he obviously considered Catholicism way worse. So I talked myself into Katte not having to be hardcore Protestant before the very end on those grounds. And then you gave me even better pragmatic reasons, so yay.
While thinking about your reasons, I started having fic ideas, which is good, but I promptly clamped down on that line of thinking before it could develop any further. :P
"Wow, go figure that Protestant bigots are still worse than Catholic bigots. As can also be seen by the fact Protestant fundies are anti theatre!" (The last never fails to crack me up.)
If the Protestants had banned databases, I as a non-Christian database administrator would have strong feelings on the subject! :P Theater is serious business when you're a playwright.
Here's another aspect, though: how did Fritz feel when discovering that his lie had had such an impact on Katte (especially in combination with receiving the Punctae later)? Might this cause some hastily repressed resentment that later shows itself in the remark to Grumbkow re: Katte?
That's what I've been assuming this whole time. He had a number of reasons for resenting Katte, which I've never held against him, no matter that I don't blame Katte myself. (Much like how Wilhelmine and Fritz must have resented each other deep down but been unable to work that out in therapy.) It was a horrendous situation for everyone involved.
However, I find your arguments about the non-religious motives Katte might have had about how this is going to affect Fritz's future and his relations with his father very convincing. You have saved my fanfic! (I can ignore Katte's last-minute return to devout Protestantism, as it was triggered by events that don't happen in my AU, yay.)
I'm glad. :) BTW, I don't know whether it is at all useful for your story, but one element from Hans Heinrich's letters that says something about Katte we didn't know before, imo, is that the request re: his younger brother is just made about one, Albrecht, the youngest one. Why no requests/recs to where the middle brother should study? Might Albrecht also have been Katte's favourite brother in addition to becoming Hans Heinrich's next fave? (*sinister music plays, reasons for duel accumulate*) (Does the mutually assured destruction duel still happen in your timeline?)
That's what I've been assuming this whole time. He had a number of reasons for resenting Katte, which I've never held against him, no matter that I don't blame Katte myself. (Much like how Wilhelmine and Fritz must have resented each other deep down but been unable to work that out in therapy.) It was a horrendous situation for everyone involved.
So it was. How about Katte? We know how important it was to him that Fritz knew he didn't blame him as he went to his death, and also already the night before, when messengers ran conveying just that message. But it would surely only be human if he's experienced moments - like, say, when he was shown the instruments of torture and couldn't be sure they would not be used on him, or when he initially hears his death sentence - when he thinks, damm, Fritz, why did you have to drag me into this? before recollecting himself.
Why no requests/recs to where the middle brother should study? Might Albrecht also have been Katte's favourite brother in addition to becoming Hans Heinrich's next fave?
I had wondered that myself! Not sure if it's because the 5-year-old is the favorite, or because the 9-year-old is already in school and the 5-year-old is still at home. But in fanfic, you could definitely point to this as evidence for him being everyone's fave!
Does the mutually assured destruction duel still happen in your timeline?
Absolutely! It's super interesting, and the causes are still there. Albrecht's still the favorite, and because Katte's living in France, HH still makes youngest son the main heir. HH may not think a Katte who didn't actually desert deserves to have his head cut off when even the court martial decided on life imprisonment, but he's not letting the property pass outside of Prussia to a son who did desert, even if he's since been pardoned. (And when HH is dying in 1741, he hasn't seen Hans Hermann in 10 years, and he's only been pardoned in the last year.)
After they kill each other in 1748, Katte goes back home to comfort Stepmom and is now the main heir, on condition that he doesn't marry (I think this condition was your idea), at which point it will pass to the Hans Christoph branch. The timeline being elastic. :)
How about Katte? We know how important it was to him that Fritz knew he didn't blame him as he went to his death, and also already the night before, when messengers ran conveying just that message. But it would surely only be human if he's experienced moments
Oh, definitely. Even in the dark hours of the morning before his execution, when he's being all brave and cheerful, someone (Besser? Müller?) reports that they can see moments where flesh and blood are struggling against the dictates of the spirit, i.e. Katte very much does not want to die. At some level, he's terrified. He's just mastering the terror by sheer force of will, is all.
(That has always broken my heart, btw, and made Katte's last day feel more real to me: uniform cheerfulness would have been alien to me, but terrified and trying to do the right thing is uuuuuggghhhh right in the feels.)
(Also, note that Fritz presumably would have read this part in the archives as well. No wonder Ludolf got the heiress.)
So resentment at Fritz for dragging him into this? Of course. But the specific thing that my reincarnation AU (the only one where he gets to experience the events of November 6 and get therapy afterwards) focus on is his resentment that he had to be strong for everyone else. He's comforting Fritz, writing letters comforting his family, if you read the preacher reports, he's comforting the guy who's supposed to be comforting him (Müller?), and heck, in Zeithain, he's comforting the guys who are watching him get executed!
Which is an absolutely common experience for people who are about to die; it comes up again and again in accounts by people who are or may be terminally ill. They want comfort, and instead they have to dispense it. And resentment is common.
So Katte has at least two reasons to have suppressed resentment (I mean, besides resentment at FW :P).
:/
Oh, speaking of me having to come to terms with people being sincere, two years ago when I reprised my Fritz interests, I had to come to terms with the fact that the Anti-Machiavell was not the attempt to trick everyone into not seeing the Silesian invasion coming that I had always insisted it was in my younger days, in the face of everyone I was reading saying it wasn't.
What can I say, complex ulterior motives push my id buttons!
(That has always broken my heart, btw, and made Katte's last day feel more real to me: uniform cheerfulness would have been alien to me, but terrified and trying to do the right thing is uuuuuggghhhh right in the feels.)
Ugh, yeah. :((((((((((((((((
(I am just enjoying the heck out of this whole thread -- well, you know, for values of "enjoy" that also include "having my heart broken a lot," although I don't have anything coherent to say.)
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Protestant Katte?
Date: 2021-02-21 06:41 pm (UTC)But Grandma Sophie Charlotte and Fritz were cool with people converting to Catholicism for the sake of a royal marriage! Most Protestants were! It takes FW-level piety to object to that, and Katte seems to have needed that argument in order to risk his neck helping get Fritz out of Prussia. Would Oliver Cromwell have traveled to Madrid to visit the Catholic who mentored him? :P
I think more convincing analogy is the two millennia of hardcore Christians who managed to venerate various pagans but would have died (or killed :P) rather than see anyone give up Christianity.
However, I find your arguments about the non-religious motives Katte might have had about how this is going to affect Fritz's future and his relations with his father very convincing. You have saved my fanfic! (I can ignore Katte's last-minute return to devout Protestantism, as it was triggered by events that don't happen in my AU, yay.)
he doesn't even have to be a hardcore Protestant, but a good friend to Fritz, to find this prospect deeply alarming, if it's any consolation to you.
It's extremely consoling, thank you. :)
well, here's another example of a childhood imprint of "this faith is vile" surviving far beyond believing in the other faith: good old Voltaire.
Yeah, and for all that Fritz had a Catholic church built, he obviously considered Catholicism way worse. So I talked myself into Katte not having to be hardcore Protestant before the very end on those grounds. And then you gave me even better pragmatic reasons, so yay.
While thinking about your reasons, I started having fic ideas, which is good, but I promptly clamped down on that line of thinking before it could develop any further. :P
"Wow, go figure that Protestant bigots are still worse than Catholic bigots. As can also be seen by the fact Protestant fundies are anti theatre!" (The last never fails to crack me up.)
If the Protestants had banned databases, I as a non-Christian database administrator would have strong feelings on the subject! :P Theater is serious business when you're a playwright.
Here's another aspect, though: how did Fritz feel when discovering that his lie had had such an impact on Katte (especially in combination with receiving the Punctae later)? Might this cause some hastily repressed resentment that later shows itself in the remark to Grumbkow re: Katte?
That's what I've been assuming this whole time. He had a number of reasons for resenting Katte, which I've never held against him, no matter that I don't blame Katte myself. (Much like how Wilhelmine and Fritz must have resented each other deep down but been unable to work that out in therapy.) It was a horrendous situation for everyone involved.
Re: Protestant Katte?
Date: 2021-02-22 06:41 am (UTC)I'm glad. :) BTW, I don't know whether it is at all useful for your story, but one element from Hans Heinrich's letters that says something about Katte we didn't know before, imo, is that the request re: his younger brother is just made about one, Albrecht, the youngest one. Why no requests/recs to where the middle brother should study? Might Albrecht also have been Katte's favourite brother in addition to becoming Hans Heinrich's next fave? (*sinister music plays, reasons for duel accumulate*) (Does the mutually assured destruction duel still happen in your timeline?)
That's what I've been assuming this whole time. He had a number of reasons for resenting Katte, which I've never held against him, no matter that I don't blame Katte myself. (Much like how Wilhelmine and Fritz must have resented each other deep down but been unable to work that out in therapy.) It was a horrendous situation for everyone involved.
So it was. How about Katte? We know how important it was to him that Fritz knew he didn't blame him as he went to his death, and also already the night before, when messengers ran conveying just that message. But it would surely only be human if he's experienced moments - like, say, when he was shown the instruments of torture and couldn't be sure they would not be used on him, or when he initially hears his death sentence - when he thinks, damm, Fritz, why did you have to drag me into this? before recollecting himself.
Re: Protestant Katte?
Date: 2021-02-22 03:49 pm (UTC)I had wondered that myself! Not sure if it's because the 5-year-old is the favorite, or because the 9-year-old is already in school and the 5-year-old is still at home. But in fanfic, you could definitely point to this as evidence for him being everyone's fave!
Does the mutually assured destruction duel still happen in your timeline?
Absolutely! It's super interesting, and the causes are still there. Albrecht's still the favorite, and because Katte's living in France, HH still makes youngest son the main heir. HH may not think a Katte who didn't actually desert deserves to have his head cut off when even the court martial decided on life imprisonment, but he's not letting the property pass outside of Prussia to a son who did desert, even if he's since been pardoned. (And when HH is dying in 1741, he hasn't seen Hans Hermann in 10 years, and he's only been pardoned in the last year.)
After they kill each other in 1748, Katte goes back home to comfort Stepmom and is now the main heir, on condition that he doesn't marry (I think this condition was your idea), at which point it will pass to the Hans Christoph branch. The timeline being elastic. :)
How about Katte? We know how important it was to him that Fritz knew he didn't blame him as he went to his death, and also already the night before, when messengers ran conveying just that message. But it would surely only be human if he's experienced moments
Oh, definitely. Even in the dark hours of the morning before his execution, when he's being all brave and cheerful, someone (Besser? Müller?) reports that they can see moments where flesh and blood are struggling against the dictates of the spirit, i.e. Katte very much does not want to die. At some level, he's terrified. He's just mastering the terror by sheer force of will, is all.
(That has always broken my heart, btw, and made Katte's last day feel more real to me: uniform cheerfulness would have been alien to me, but terrified and trying to do the right thing is uuuuuggghhhh right in the feels.)
(Also, note that Fritz presumably would have read this part in the archives as well. No wonder Ludolf got the heiress.)
So resentment at Fritz for dragging him into this? Of course. But the specific thing that my reincarnation AU (the only one where he gets to experience the events of November 6 and get therapy afterwards) focus on is his resentment that he had to be strong for everyone else. He's comforting Fritz, writing letters comforting his family, if you read the preacher reports, he's comforting the guy who's supposed to be comforting him (Müller?), and heck, in Zeithain, he's comforting the guys who are watching him get executed!
Which is an absolutely common experience for people who are about to die; it comes up again and again in accounts by people who are or may be terminally ill. They want comfort, and instead they have to dispense it. And resentment is common.
So Katte has at least two reasons to have suppressed resentment (I mean, besides resentment at FW :P).
:/
Oh, speaking of me having to come to terms with people being sincere, two years ago when I reprised my Fritz interests, I had to come to terms with the fact that the Anti-Machiavell was not the attempt to trick everyone into not seeing the Silesian invasion coming that I had always insisted it was in my younger days, in the face of everyone I was reading saying it wasn't.
What can I say, complex ulterior motives push my id buttons!
Re: Protestant Katte?
Date: 2021-02-23 07:35 pm (UTC)It must have been quite the trip for him to read all of it ten years later. Do we know when exactly that happened?
Re: Protestant Katte?
Date: 2021-02-24 12:55 am (UTC)Re: Protestant Katte?
Date: 2021-02-26 05:38 am (UTC)Ugh, yeah. :((((((((((((((((
(I am just enjoying the heck out of this whole thread -- well, you know, for values of "enjoy" that also include "having my heart broken a lot," although I don't have anything coherent to say.)