Return of the Thief (Turner)
Oct. 16th, 2020 10:17 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahn3+/5. Well, that was the end of an era. I was telling ase that this is possibly the very last series where I've bought the books in hardback right after publication. Partially because it has the distinction of Turner taking a very long time to finish but actually finishing (so on one hand I've still got YA Feels from reading the first books when I was... a YA, and also when I was still reading fantasy series, but on the other hand she actually finished!!) and partially because, well, I had already had five books on my shelf, I thought I should get the set (instead of getting an e-copy).
Anyway. I am really glad I read the previous five volumes before reading this one, because I think if I were approaching it as a book I would have been disappointed, but approaching it as Part 6 of a serial book made it work a lot better for me, I think. I think it has all the strengths and weaknesses of all the other books (with one fairly large weakness that didn't exist in the other books), and because I'd just read them all and had (in particular) the weaknesses in mind, I could enjoy the strengths more. I will say I probably liked it about as much as Conspiracy of Kings -- so, I did quite enjoy reading it, but it wasn't my favorite thing she's ever written either.
The major weakness of the entire sequence of books is that after Thief (which itself had some weakness because of the narrator being Gen) and Queen, Gen is no longer an interesting character. He's a trickster god. So, so, so. Trickster gods' plots are fun to read about, but they're not fun characters because there's no real tension to the character. They will win (unless they lose, in which case that's the story), and that's pretty much all there is to them. It's no surprise that my two favorite books in the series were the two where Gen has very little on-screen time and even less (or zero) POV time.
In this book, Gen & Co. had a lot of screen time, and this made the book rather less interesting than it would have been if had been a more Pheris-centric book (like King was a Costis-centric book). I liked Pheris (everything about Pheris, really) and his arc so much, but I felt like it was only sort of vaguely sketched in -- the first half was great, and then (for instance) we only get one vague mention of his math skills which is overridden by Gen (of course) also being good at math? I was waiting for his math skills to be plot-relevant and then they never were! He did have an arc in the last half where he did some cool stuff, but I felt like the interior growth arc was absent -- we didn't really get to see him grow into the person who did what he did, he just... kind of did them? IDK, maybe I missed something. Like, I can see all the spaces where there was supposed to be an interior growth arc, and what it was supposed to be (Pheris, who was trained never to show any kind of smarts or courage to keep himself alive, grows into both of those things, as well as confronts his complicated feelings about his family), but it never... actually gelled into that in any kind of visceral way, for me. Partially I think this is because Pheris casts himself as the chronicler/historian and so self-effaces to a certain extent. But still.
Because by this sixth book I'd become kind of resigned to Gen being a trickster god himself, it didn't ping me while reading that Gen never really has to actually wrestle with offending the gods, and that in general the odd and terrible ethics of the gods never comes into play at all in this book (though I absolutely see why it bothers people, and I agree it is a major weakness). Though this has been more and more the case as the books went on, as well, and I actually rather liked the arc where Gen gets higher and higher up as a trickster god until he has the chance to lose everything, and it's only because he listens to Pheris that he doesn't. Although it taking more than... thirty seconds... to completely wrap up the conflict would maybe have been nice?
Part of me, though, would really like the story of how Gen does overreach and offend the gods -- and falls. (Like, he's set it up so the alliance holds -- and then he dies; it would be fittingly epic though tragic. Although I knew he wouldn't die because that was set up as early as book three, and Turner doesn't play with her readers, which I honestly have to say I appreciate.) Or the AU where he doesn't listen to Pheris at the end and it all ends in tragedy. (I don't really want that in canon... because I do really like these guys and want them all to be happy... but I kind of would love to see what someone did with that. I'd ask for it for Yuletide if I wasn't worried about offendingthe gods a poor writer who just wanted to write some fluffy shipfic...)
Totally random thoughts:
-All right, I just laughed when Relius/Teleus was suddenly a Thing, I mean, it's great, I'm a fan! But also it came from pretty much nowhere and it reminded me of when suddenly Gen/Attolia was a Thing that also basically came from nowhere. I guess I have to admire Turner here: you don't want to write romance, so... you just don't, you just have your romantic relationships suddenly appear out of thin air. Hee!
-Okay, so... you know, I guess there isn't textual evidence exactly of Costis/Kamet but when everyone is going around citing their proof of Kamet not being dead is that there's no mention of Costis being dead and obviously one would imply the other, I mean, I'm just gonna go ahead and assume. Maybe they're aromantic life partnerswith an addiction to hurt/comfort, you know, I would be super super cool with that.
-I would really, really have liked to see more of what happened with the volcano. I know we get Eddis' dream, but it was only a page long! To me this was THE overriding menace of the entire six books, even more so in many ways than the Mede, and I would have really liked either more detail in the dream (couldn't we have seen Eddis' or Gen's successor?) or an epilogue that went into more detail how it worked that because of Gen's high-kingship that they were able to clear Eddis before the volcano went off.
-I still don't understand Gen/Irene at all, and clearly neither does anyone else. I admit I laughed when Attolia was like, "I didn't get inappropriate on my own!" and Gen was all "Do you think I don't know that??" LOL you two.
-I am mad that Philo died. (I was expecting Sounis or Eddis to die, and would have been less cut up about that than Philo.) I guess that is better than Ari dying, which I really would have been up in arms about. (Obviously Costis wasn't going to die, so we're not even going there.) And sad about Gen's dad dying, I loved him <3
-Did that entire book not pass Bechdel?
ase that this is possibly the very last series where I've bought the books in hardback right after publication. Partially because it has the distinction of Turner taking a very long time to finish but actually finishing (so on one hand I've still got YA Feels from reading the first books when I was... a YA, and also when I was still reading fantasy series, but on the other hand she actually finished!!) and partially because, well, I had already had five books on my shelf, I thought I should get the set (instead of getting an e-copy).Anyway. I am really glad I read the previous five volumes before reading this one, because I think if I were approaching it as a book I would have been disappointed, but approaching it as Part 6 of a serial book made it work a lot better for me, I think. I think it has all the strengths and weaknesses of all the other books (with one fairly large weakness that didn't exist in the other books), and because I'd just read them all and had (in particular) the weaknesses in mind, I could enjoy the strengths more. I will say I probably liked it about as much as Conspiracy of Kings -- so, I did quite enjoy reading it, but it wasn't my favorite thing she's ever written either.
The major weakness of the entire sequence of books is that after Thief (which itself had some weakness because of the narrator being Gen) and Queen, Gen is no longer an interesting character. He's a trickster god. So, so, so. Trickster gods' plots are fun to read about, but they're not fun characters because there's no real tension to the character. They will win (unless they lose, in which case that's the story), and that's pretty much all there is to them. It's no surprise that my two favorite books in the series were the two where Gen has very little on-screen time and even less (or zero) POV time.
In this book, Gen & Co. had a lot of screen time, and this made the book rather less interesting than it would have been if had been a more Pheris-centric book (like King was a Costis-centric book). I liked Pheris (everything about Pheris, really) and his arc so much, but I felt like it was only sort of vaguely sketched in -- the first half was great, and then (for instance) we only get one vague mention of his math skills which is overridden by Gen (of course) also being good at math? I was waiting for his math skills to be plot-relevant and then they never were! He did have an arc in the last half where he did some cool stuff, but I felt like the interior growth arc was absent -- we didn't really get to see him grow into the person who did what he did, he just... kind of did them? IDK, maybe I missed something. Like, I can see all the spaces where there was supposed to be an interior growth arc, and what it was supposed to be (Pheris, who was trained never to show any kind of smarts or courage to keep himself alive, grows into both of those things, as well as confronts his complicated feelings about his family), but it never... actually gelled into that in any kind of visceral way, for me. Partially I think this is because Pheris casts himself as the chronicler/historian and so self-effaces to a certain extent. But still.
Because by this sixth book I'd become kind of resigned to Gen being a trickster god himself, it didn't ping me while reading that Gen never really has to actually wrestle with offending the gods, and that in general the odd and terrible ethics of the gods never comes into play at all in this book (though I absolutely see why it bothers people, and I agree it is a major weakness). Though this has been more and more the case as the books went on, as well, and I actually rather liked the arc where Gen gets higher and higher up as a trickster god until he has the chance to lose everything, and it's only because he listens to Pheris that he doesn't. Although it taking more than... thirty seconds... to completely wrap up the conflict would maybe have been nice?
Part of me, though, would really like the story of how Gen does overreach and offend the gods -- and falls. (Like, he's set it up so the alliance holds -- and then he dies; it would be fittingly epic though tragic. Although I knew he wouldn't die because that was set up as early as book three, and Turner doesn't play with her readers, which I honestly have to say I appreciate.) Or the AU where he doesn't listen to Pheris at the end and it all ends in tragedy. (I don't really want that in canon... because I do really like these guys and want them all to be happy... but I kind of would love to see what someone did with that. I'd ask for it for Yuletide if I wasn't worried about offending
Totally random thoughts:
-All right, I just laughed when Relius/Teleus was suddenly a Thing, I mean, it's great, I'm a fan! But also it came from pretty much nowhere and it reminded me of when suddenly Gen/Attolia was a Thing that also basically came from nowhere. I guess I have to admire Turner here: you don't want to write romance, so... you just don't, you just have your romantic relationships suddenly appear out of thin air. Hee!
-Okay, so... you know, I guess there isn't textual evidence exactly of Costis/Kamet but when everyone is going around citing their proof of Kamet not being dead is that there's no mention of Costis being dead and obviously one would imply the other, I mean, I'm just gonna go ahead and assume. Maybe they're aromantic life partners
-I would really, really have liked to see more of what happened with the volcano. I know we get Eddis' dream, but it was only a page long! To me this was THE overriding menace of the entire six books, even more so in many ways than the Mede, and I would have really liked either more detail in the dream (couldn't we have seen Eddis' or Gen's successor?) or an epilogue that went into more detail how it worked that because of Gen's high-kingship that they were able to clear Eddis before the volcano went off.
-I still don't understand Gen/Irene at all, and clearly neither does anyone else. I admit I laughed when Attolia was like, "I didn't get inappropriate on my own!" and Gen was all "Do you think I don't know that??" LOL you two.
-I am mad that Philo died. (I was expecting Sounis or Eddis to die, and would have been less cut up about that than Philo.) I guess that is better than Ari dying, which I really would have been up in arms about. (Obviously Costis wasn't going to die, so we're not even going there.) And sad about Gen's dad dying, I loved him <3
-Did that entire book not pass Bechdel?
no subject
Date: 2020-10-17 08:36 pm (UTC)Yes! To me that's always been the more interesting central tension element of the series: not, "Will they drive off the Mede?" (of course they will) but "How will they manage to integrate Eddisians into the lowland countries given the cultural differences and disdains within the peninsula?" And the answer to that is I think in part the camaraderie built during the war, but I wish the book had gone into more detail--I mean, Gen mentions land grants, land grants are great, but it's the nitty-gritty of how neighbors interact on the ground that I'm most interested in, not what's declared from on high.
no subject
Date: 2020-10-19 04:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-10-22 02:50 pm (UTC)But the VOLCANO I can't believe I didn't mention that in my post, the lack of a volcano blowing up feels weirdly wrong, it's like, that was a chekov's gun placed verrrrry prominently on the mantel, you gotta shoot the gun, just more dream references the same as the rest of the series doesn't cut it!
and the bechdel test, I think you might be right about that? can't believe i didn't notice. DEFINITELY noticed though while writing my post that every single book in this series with a first-person pov is from a man's pov. A disappointingly male-focused series. I honestly thought at the very beginning of this book that Pheris was going to be a woman, but I was disabused of that notion very quickly and was disappointed.
no subject
Date: 2020-11-09 04:32 pm (UTC)YES THE VOLCANO :( It was the whole reason all of this was happening, right?? I needed more resolution!
Yeah, when I picked up the book I also thought Pheris was going to be a woman! I mean, I appreciated that the narrator was disabled, but I think it would have also have been very cool to see all of this from a woman's point of view.