Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19

[cahn]

Yuletide nominations:

18th Century CE Federician RPF
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria
Voltaire
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Ernst Ahasverus von Lehndorff
Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
Catherine II of Russia
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)

Circle of Voltaire RPF
Emilie du Chatelet
Jeanne Antoinette Poisson (Madame de Pompadour)
John Hervey (1696-1743)
Marie Louise Mignot Denis
Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
Francesco Algarotti

Comments

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[prinzsorgenfrei]

Aaah, thank you! :D I am having a lot of fun with historical-ish art, so I might make some more! Half of my current sketchbook is full of powdered wigs and memes, I have to use that chaotic creative energy somewhere.

Oh, that's really interesting! I read somewhere (probably Katte Ordre und Kriegsartikel, i remember there being a footnote about Katte portraits) that the picture was finished after his death, but that it was started after his death too is an interesting new fact :D And that it was made by another Francke-Alumnus is pretty cool! I mainly chose this one because it's the only one i know that is in colour (apart from the one with his sister) and that made mapping out the colour sections a lot easier. Of course the most important thing is getting The Eyebrows™ right since that appears to be what really stood out about him to other people :'D

Katte portraits

[mildred_of_midgard]

Half of my current sketchbook is full of powdered wigs and memes, I have to use that chaotic creative energy somewhere.

Hee! Sounds like a great plan.

i remember there being a footnote about Katte portraits) that the picture was finished after his death, but that it was started after his death too is an interesting new fact

Okay, I dug around! The portrait itself was started when he was alive and possibly finished after the execution, but it looks like there's a later note saying that it was enlarged from an original half-length to one that extended to the knee after the execution, "in order to make the depiction of the beheaded man more representative."

So it looks like at least some commissioning was done after the death. The reason we care is that we're trying to find evidence for how Hans Heinrich felt about his son's death, since FW fans keep saying he was on board with the upgraded sentence and felt it was just. We're finding increasing evidence that while he probably didn't approve of the desertion plan and would have considered some punishment just, the death sentence really upset him and he did honor his son's memory.

This book is on my to-read list, btw, as soon as my German is good enough! I mean, it's reasonably close now, it would just be very slow, and I've got a few items ahead of it to practice on before I get to it, at which point hopefully I'll be reading faster.

Of course the most important thing is getting The Eyebrows™ right since that appears to be what really stood out about him to other people :'D

Right? :P

Which reminds me, there's this painting, which as you can see Wikipedia thinks is of Henri de Catt, but it's pretty clearly the same painting that the Wust local historians have posted a head shot of in the crypt and are claiming is of Hans Hermann von Katte!

On the one hand, I would like to trust the Wust historians over Wikipedia. On the other,
- Fine eyebrows.
- Chin very oval compared to other Katte portraits.
- Does not seem to be mentioned in Kloosterhuis?

Admittedly the first two aren't definitive, and regarding the third, admittedly my German is not great, and admittedly Kloosterhuis makes mistakes (some of which I've caught, despite only having used this book as a reference and not yet having read it), but still. I trust him more than Wikipedia *or* Wust.

I'm inclined toward Catt, but would welcome more evidence in either direction.

Re: Katte portraits

[prinzsorgenfrei]

I just checked Kloosterhuis as well and now I feel like I should attempt to find the old photos of the other Katte portraits... I recognize one of them (apart from The Yellow One and The One With His Sister) and it would be interesting to compare all of them, face wise.

Oh, I remember the de Catt portrait! My friend and I noticed it in Wust and thought it was a bit stange. I know that it's been printed and dubbed a portrait of Katte in at least one Fritz biography, but I do agree that it's probably not him.
I found a high resolution coloured version here and the museum it's in dates it to around 1763 and assumes it's de Catt. Zoomed in, the face is also just... very different from other depictions (and descriptions) of Katte.

I'm not sure where the people in Wust got that particular picture since it's not in the brochure that I bought there, but they did make some mistakes with pictures in there too (mainly mixing up some of the Menzel sketches from the illustrated biography), so they might just have stumbled upon some weird sources for pictures they use.

Re: Katte portraits

[mildred_of_midgard]

Zoomed in, the face is also just... very different from other depictions (and descriptions) of Katte.

I agree. These aren't photographs, granted, but the others that I've seen all look at least vaguely alike, and this is an outlier (and should not be counted? :P).

The one with his sister, for instance.

Three portraits in Fontane.

One that supposedly dates to 1726, according to the person who posted it. I would need to check this one, but I've seen the black-and-white a number of times attributed to Katte, at least.

dubbed a portrait of Katte in at least one Fritz biography

Now that you remind me, I think I saw it in Asprey, if memory serves.

I'm not sure where the people in Wust got that particular picture since it's not in the brochure that I bought there, but they did make some mistakes with pictures in there too

Oooh, interesting. Next time one of us is in Wust, we should bring this up with them!

I find it interesting that the names are so similar, and Katte used to be spelled Katt or even Catt--I wonder if someone misinterpreted it and two separate traditions started.

Re: Katte portraits

[prinzsorgenfrei]

One that supposedly dates to 1726

That one would fit one of Kloosterhuis' descriptions (Wuster Porträt I), so I'm inclined to believe the post. He lists Katte's rank as Kornett, based off of the uniform I assume, so I guess the original could have been painted anywhere from 1724 to 1729. I think the coloured version could be taken from "Altpreußische Offiziersporträts" by Hans Bleckwenn from 2000, but I have no way to check whether that is true. I do like how the expression just changes completely from black and white to colour. Someone messed up the eyes along the way :'D

I find it interesting that the names are so similar, and Katte used to be spelled Katt or even Catt--I wonder if someone misinterpreted it and two separate traditions started

That sounds very likely, especially with the overall French speaking leading to a von Katte becoming a de Katt (which he signed at least one letter as). Couldn't fault anyone for mixing that up. At least they have different first names though, I wouldn't want to be someone having to research anyone from the Reuß family where

"All the males (...) are named Heinrich (...) plus a number. In the elder line the numbering covers all male children of the elder House, and the numbers increase until 100 is reached and then start again at 1. In the younger line the system is similar but the numbers increase until the end of the century before starting again at 1. This odd regulation was formulated as a Family Law in 1688, but the tradition of the uniformity of name was in practice as early as 1200." (Wikipedia)

Re: Katte portraits

[cahn]

Hee. And I thought all the Friedrichs and Wilhelmines in this fandom were bad!