Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19

[cahn]

Yuletide nominations:

18th Century CE Federician RPF
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria
Voltaire
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Ernst Ahasverus von Lehndorff
Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
Catherine II of Russia
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)

Circle of Voltaire RPF
Emilie du Chatelet
Jeanne Antoinette Poisson (Madame de Pompadour)
John Hervey (1696-1743)
Marie Louise Mignot Denis
Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
Francesco Algarotti

Comments

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[cahn]

Hiiiiii! :DD So lovely to virtual-meet you! :D As you can see from rheinsberg, I don't do the research like these powerhouses, but I am always very happy to cheer everyone on :D And Fritz-Voltaire! selenak sold me on Voltaire so I am excited to find out more about him and about their correspondence :D (mildred_of_midgard will probably drag me into reading their correspondence at some point -- I also by far am the slowest reader of these three (or at least I have the least time to read, which works out the same) -- but it will be quite a while from now.)

his doctors, more cruel than the disease itself

LOL!

although only the first - does a clock keep its pace in a vacuum? - is actually physics in hindsight, the second - does a plant seed grow without air? - is not

*nods* Did they have the same division of physics that we have now? I had the vague impression they kind of shoved everything science-related under "natural philosophy" and called it a day.

I admit that I had to look them up because I was unaware of the story.

Heh, I did read the Aeneid and I had no idea who they were! (Though it was a while ago now.)

Voltaire in his February 28th response says that Fritz should take his own health advice, and that perhaps Nisus/Euryalus fic is more suitable during a time of recovery than maths. (Which I can only agree with.)

Heeeee. Of course Fritz should :P But also I think this is hilarious because it really shows Voltaire is just so not a scientist/mathematician, despite feeling like he ought to be one because all smart people are, and Obviously He Is Smart. (This is, at least, what I came away with from the Émilie bio I read. But I suppose also can be inferred from Émilie's letter :D )

Part of what makes reading about all of this so interesting are the constant shifts: One minute I'm laughing out loud because a quote is hilarious or daring or WTF, the next I just can't help being touched or impressed, and the next it's "damn it, you asshole".

I KNOWWWWWW. I feel like when these guys tell me stories, I spend 1/3 of the time feeling sorry for him, 1/3 of the time impressed by him, and the rest of the time shaking my head and going, "Oh Fritz." (And not in a good way.)

Another take-away from my recent reading, particularly the [community profile] rheinsberg write-ups: siblings! So many sibling feelings, so many complex and heartbreaking relationships.

yessssss like everyone else is saying, all hail selenak and getting us all into the siblings! <3333333 Honestly this is when I started to get really emotionally involved -- I was having fun before, but the dysfunctional and complicated sibling dynamics really sold the whole thing to me. (Who is requesting Fritz siblings for Yuletide? This girl! Well, and also selenak :D )

The King remains at the table until 11 1/7. When he rises and the ladies in waiting and I begin to pass him, he suddenly stops at the door, holding Princess Amalie with one hand, Prince Heinrich with the other, and stands like this for nearly fifteen minutes, gazing into their faces.

..Yeah.

Lastly, I observe that fix-it scenarios don't seem quite as satisfying in a historical fandom. Pesky reality getting in the way.

Absolutely agree. As mildred said, one can say to oneself in a fiction fandom that the fix-it is the thing that really happened. But... one can't really say that with reality :( (Still, though. There is some satisfaction in reading about things the way they ought to have happened like Wilhelmine saying to FW "But it is better for you to die than for justice to leave this world.")

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[felis]

Hi, nice to meet you! :) I've learned so many things about Frederick et al these last few weeks and it's been quite a ride so far.

Did they have the same division of physics that we have now? I had the vague impression they kind of shoved everything science-related under "natural philosophy" and called it a day.

Yeah, as far as I know, they didn't have the clear science divisions yet, neither between natural sciences and philosophy as an umbrella term nor between the different natural sciences as we understand them today, that's why I added the hindsight comment. Although I think the 18th century was when that very slowly started to change - they do use the term physics and are employing scientific methods instead of placing the weight on the philosophy part of natural philosophy, even though it's still kind of seen as part of it (and taught that way at universities). Probably one reason why Voltaire's dabbling in it, too. Biology as a term doesn't exist yet, but chemistry as derived from alchemy is kind of around. (Although as Fredersdorf clearly shows, alchemy itself is still a thing as well.)

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[mildred_of_midgard]

(Although as Fredersdorf clearly shows, alchemy itself is still a thing as well.)

So I was reading Oster's Wilhelmine bio, and I found this quote from a Fritz letter:

Fritz on October 19, 1732: If I could make gold, I would first use my knowledge to help out Wilhelmine.

To which I commented, "If you could make gold, huh? I wonder if Fritz talked about making gold before 1732, or if we're seeing traces of Fredersdorf here."

Do you know of any Fritzian references to alchemy before 1732? Or is this a sign that Fredersdorf was maybe talking about alchemy with Fritz from the beginning? (I mean, there could be many reasons this was on Fritz's mind, but I do find it curious that it's within a year after he met Fredersdorf.)

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[felis]

I do not know of any earlier alchemy references, but I also feel like I'm not really the person to ask here, given that all I've read that's earlier than 1732 is everything you guys posted on the time period plus all the Fritz-FW and one or two Grumbkow letters. :D I'll certainly keep an eye out during future readings, though.

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[mildred_of_midgard]

Thanks! Unfortunately, most of his correspondence from pre-1732 was destroyed, but perhaps there's an envoy report or something.

And until we find counterevidence, I'm reading between the lines and seeing Fredersdorf. :)

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[mildred_of_midgard]

Heh, I did read the Aeneid and I had no idea who they were! (Though it was a while ago now.)

I had a semester in college on the Aeneid, in which I read it in its entirety in English and about a third of it in Latin...twenty years ago. So I too had to look up Nisus and Euryalus last year. ;)

There is some satisfaction in reading about things the way they ought to have happened like Wilhelmine saying to FW "But it is better for you to die than for justice to leave this world."

And for that as well as FW's stroke I am forever indebted to our wonderful author! Seriously, I sat up straight when I read that and started yelling out loud. I still call it differently broken, though. ;)

yessssss like everyone else is saying, all hail [personal profile] selenak and getting us all into the siblings! <3333333 Honestly this is when I started to get really emotionally involved -- I was having fun before, but the dysfunctional and complicated sibling dynamics really sold the whole thing to me.

I'm still trying to figure out why I'm not more emotionally invested in them. Intellectually, they're very interesting, but for some reason, my feels haven't latched on. I wondered if it might be that I prefer functional to dysfunctional sibling relationships? But then I remembered exceptions, and so idek. I definitely wouldn't want to do without the glorious Hohenzollern dynamics in this fandom, regardless. I have to say that when selenak started fleshing out the whole family for me, that's when Fritz and company started to feel like three-dimensional people with an actual context.

I KNOWWWWWW. I feel like when these guys tell me stories, I spend 1/3 of the time feeling sorry for him, 1/3 of the time impressed by him, and the rest of the time shaking my head and going, "Oh Fritz." (And not in a good way.)

That sounds about right. Though in my case, I have to admit "Oh, Fritz" is said with a lot of sympathy. Like, "Oh, Fritz, you put the 'problematic' in 'problematic fave'," or, "Oh, Fritz, I'm sorry everything was so terrible. Please get therapy." But maybe that's just because I'm a Fritz stan of old. ;)

Fritz-adjacent dynamics

[cahn]

IDK, I wonder if it's because you are so attached to Fritz? Like, part of the reason the dysfunctional sibling dynamics really grab me is that I'm really not particularly attached to Fritz, so the fact that a lot of these dynamics involve him behaving badly is a plus for me rather than a minus, and Heinrich (whom I do love) gets a bit of the woobie dynamic. Whereas it's probably not nearly as emotionally interesting to have one's fave being the one behaving awfully. (For similar reasons, I'm not really all that emotionally invested in the wives... at least not yet. Except possibly for Louise, because of that letter of Amalie's. But even so, my short-term attachment to Heinrich isn't at all to be compared to your long-term attachment to Fritz, so I think it would be very possible; selenak's fic got me invested in Voltaire, after all, which I didn't think was possible given my attachment to Emilie :P )

Re: Fritz-adjacent dynamics

[mildred_of_midgard]

Maybe? But for some reason, the feels about his relationship with Wilhelmine, even when they were young, won't come either, and that generally doesn't involve Fritz behaving badly (not until much later). And then again, I can't get the Fredersdorf feels either! Despite trying hard for both of them. And both those relationships are normally totally my jam! And then I'm into relationships that normally aren't, like Katte and Keith.

Idk, this is just a very topsy-turvy fandom for me. *shrug*