Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19

[cahn]

Yuletide nominations:

18th Century CE Federician RPF
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria
Voltaire
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Ernst Ahasverus von Lehndorff
Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
Catherine II of Russia
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)

Circle of Voltaire RPF
Emilie du Chatelet
Jeanne Antoinette Poisson (Madame de Pompadour)
John Hervey (1696-1743)
Marie Louise Mignot Denis
Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
Francesco Algarotti

Comments

Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

Just remembered I should be replying on this post. *facepalm*

Oh nooooo :( Heh, the funny thing is that I wouldn't have minded Peter Keith dying instead of Katte nearly as much if mildred hadn't convinced me through fic that he was really cool :P

*beams proudly*

But yeah, I totally had the same reaction. "He could have saved Katte! But Peter! But Katte! But Peter!" :((((

I guess if one of the boyfriends had to die, the one whose family connections could get him beheaded with a single stroke has some advantages over the one who might have had his guts ripped out with red hot pliers before a slow death by hanging.

But consider: Peter's captured before Katte's execution. They were tried at the same court martial, the sentences were handed down at the same time, the execution would presumably have been carried out at the same time...if FW decided *not* to spare Katte, would they both have been shipped to Küstrin at the same time for Fritz to watch? It's not the same situation as Fritz already having had the meltdown and having reformed and been pardoned. And if so, would they have gotten the same punishment? Especially since Peter not only doesn't have the family, but he actualfax deserted, unlike Katte. You could make a real case for torturing him and not Katte.

:/

GAH FW.

Re: Peter Keith

[selenak]

You could, but that’s also why even if both Katte and Peter get trials and capital sentences at the same time, I don’t think he’d have sent Peter to Küstrin but would have had him executed in Berlin, in public, the point being the same as with the soldiers who did suffer this way earlier that year: discourage mutiny and desertion among the troops. Since Peter had actually deserted.

The point of Katte’s death, otoh, was specifically aimed at Fritz. So even if their trials happen simultanously, I say Katte (son of Hans Heinrich, grandson of Grandpa Wartensleben) gets the Küstrin execution in front of Fritz, but with circumstances that allow him a quick death and people around him who respect him, while Peter Keith gets the ignominous traitor’s death to show the rest of the army what happens if you desert.

But, like I said: I really do think Katte would have had a good shot at survival if Peter had been caught. Because FW had to override the tribunal twice there, and didn’t have to at all in the case of Peter, who was universally condemned to death in absentia. No question about his guilt whatsoever. FW, for all his FWness, wasn’t a cartoon figure who couldn’t get enough of death sentences. So my money is on Peter getting the death sentence (and either Fritz is brought to Berlin for the execution, or Peter is executed in Küstrin, but either way, if only Peter gets the death sentence, then Fritz is there), and the tribunal sentence of life long imprisonment for Hans Herrmann stands, allowing FW to get praised by all and sunder for his mercy. (Since none of the influentual people care about Peter.)

Re: Peter Keith

[cahn]

allowing FW to get praised by all and sunder for his mercy.

Sigh. This sounds horribly plausible. ...I suppose I'm glad Peter didn't get torn apart by red hot pliers. I mean, not that I'm at all reconciled to Katte's death, but it's got to have been better than that.

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

I knoooow, I'm glad he was at Trinity. <3 Peter. Although maybe next time enroll, Peter? I know you could hardly imagine that posterity would be so interested in finding traces of you in the historical record, but you would be surprised what we get up to in this salon! (Just ask Fredersdorf.)

Next question: if Katte *and* Peter had made it to safety...how much worse would things have been for Fritz?

Re: Peter Keith

[cahn]

Oh noooooo do you think then we're in "Fiat Justitia" land?? IDK I sort of got the feeling FW was out for blood...

Re: Peter Keith

[selenak]

Alas the chances are quite good then, I fear. Though to be fair: in Fiat Justitia, I achieve it by letting one general move somewhat slower in a spontanous situation. Executing Fritz, by contrast, would have given FW ample opportunity to think, and consider the consequences. Renember, in rl, Frau von Kameke saying "don't be like Peter the Great of Philip of Spain" had a sobering effect, and both these precedents were also impressive because the monarchs in question ended up having no son at all to pass their Empire on to. (Peter had two more other than Alexeij when killing him, but they both died. Hello, century of Czarinas.) FW was just the type to believe God would punish him for a son killing by taking his other sons if he has time to think it through. If he's in the same room with Fritz after having learned both Katte and Peter have made successful escapes, and Fritz, full of relief about that, can't resist taunting him, all bets are off.

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

Yep, I agree him having time to think about it lowers the odds. FW was in some ways someone who could be talked out of his initial impulses. But there's always the chance!

Re Mosel, is there any evidence for this episode outside Wilhelmine's memoirs? (I don't count Pöllnitz as an independent source, since he wasn't even in Prussia at the time, and they obviously conferred on their memoir writing.) It made a fantastic "what if?" for fiction, of course, but MacDonogh doubts whether it ever happened, because there's no contemporary evidence. And while it's the kind of thing you might try to hush up, is it the kind of thing you would be successful at hushing up?

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

MacDonogh thinks so!

There was still a chance that Frederick would also be executed...Katte’s death, however, announced a slight lightening of the regime in Küstrin, and a minor rehabilitation for Frederick. Frederick William had assuaged his blood-lust. That, and the problems which might beset the succession, convinced him to spare Frederick, rather than the plea for mitigation that he had received from the emperor in Vienna on 1 November.

Which is consistent with selenak's case that if Keith, then (probably) not Katte.

Re: Peter Keith

[selenak]

Hang on, if FW received the Emperor's plea for Fritz' life on November 1st, that means the story of Seckendorff holding the letter back until later can't be right?

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

So I just checked the Monarchenbriefe collection (I knew this would be worth the $30 I paid for 30 pages! :P), and the editor actually says two things (well, two things relevant to us) about the letter:

1. It was composed (verfaßt) by Seckendorff. (!!)
2. It was only handed over on October 31, when it was clear that FW would pardon Fritz.

Clear to Seckendorff, maybe.

Interestingly, this is the date the Köpenick court returned the second verdict of incompetence to try Fritz (and imprisonment for Katte).

Also, this collection includes the reply from Fritz to Charles VI, saying that he will as long as he lives do his best to demonstrate his devotion to the Emperor. But that promise dies with Charles, the editor points out.

Is this like Wilhelmine saying that her promise not to let the Marwitzes marry outside of Prussia died with FW?

Re: Peter Keith

[selenak]

Clear to Seckendorff, maybe.

Who did generally have a good reading on FW, plus of course had Grumbkow to tell him the FW mood du jour. Mind you, if this was the same day FW was absolutely incensed to learn the Katte verdict, he was hardly in a calm state of mind. So maybe Seckendorff, with or without Grumbkow's imput, also saw the connection between FW deciding not to kill his son but killing Katte as a replacement victim. (Jochen Kepler in his FW novel Der Vater lets FW pull out all the Abraham-Isaac-ram similes at this point.)

Is this like Wilhelmine saying that her promise not to let the Marwitzes marry outside of Prussia died with FW?

I guess. Though imo if Charles hadn't died, Fritz would not have been idle for long but found a different excuse to cover himself with military glory by invading. Maybe he'd have offered Charles his "protection", too

Seckendorff

[mildred_of_midgard]

Who did generally have a good reading on FW, plus of course had Grumbkow to tell him the FW mood du jour.

Right, that's what I was thinking: he might have been the first to figure this out, while everyone else is left wondering. Which is why November 1 as a date at which the pardon has been decided felt far too early to you and me. Seckendorff (and Grumbkow) were more on top of things!

Also: not that I want to give you more opportunities to make me fall even further behind in commenting than I already am, zomg :P, but while researching this question, I (re)discovered a 1792 biography + collection of contemporary documents of Seckendorff written by a descendant or other family member, which is now in the library in 4 volumes. The first two volumes seem to be a straightforward biography in German, judging by my skimming of German in an old-fashioned font, and the next two are commentaries and documentation around his political accomplishments, in a mixture of French and German.

Anyway, it's there if we want it, as reference if nothing else. I put it in the biographies folder, despite the collection of documents. Many of these bios are a mixture, thanks to scholars being nice about publishing their sources. (Debating moving Volz's Spiegel to the documents folder, since it seems to be more purely a collection of documents?)

Re: Seckendorff

[selenak]

Volz: It is a collection of documents (some of which are excerpts of memoirs, granted), and yes, thus would fit better in the documents folder.

And I salute the royal detective for finding yet another source for us! Have only read the preface and am mightly amused, because:

Preface writer: Seckendorff rocked! No other envoy in this century has accomplished as much as he!

Ghost of Seckendorff *smugly*: Told you so.

Preface writer: as a warrior-diplomat combo, he was unequalled!

All the other envoys: still got imprisoned twice, and once by his own team. We didn't, except Poniatowski.

Poniatowski: I was the victim of a love triangle involving me, Poland and Catherine, what with me loving both passionately and both turning out to demand opposing goals from me. Fall and imprisonment resulting from this is the meat of which tragedies are made. Seckendorff, otoh, got locked up twice because he had made himself enemies, and because the Margrave of Brandenburg was nothing but a gangster with good PR. You can't compare this!

Mitchell: while I can't claim to be a soldier myself, I did survive battles. It also occurs to me that given his missions to the Czarina Catherine, Prince Henry should count as a warrior-diplomat combination as well, and frankly, I would back his soldier credentials against Seckendorff's any time. He also did not have to get the Czarina drunk in order to accomplish the first division of Poland to mutual benefits.

Poniatowski: *sobs*

More seriously, going by the preface, this was the first serious Seckendorff biography, with two previous attempts being anti-Seckendorff pamphlets by enemies, and our preface writer swears he's used all the material he could find. Note that as the book was published in 1792, this can't include Wilhelmine's memoirs. (Or for that matter Lehndorff's entertaining diary entry on paying a visit to old Seckendorff in Magdeburg where he's making an acid remark about the way Fritz describes him in the "History of the House of Brandenburg". But: the biography writer would have been able to interview people who'd actually known Seckendorff in his later years, and have had access to print media long since lost, newspaper accunts, pamphlets and the like.

Re: Seckendorff

[mildred_of_midgard]

This sounds awesome, and I look forward to more tidbits!

Preface writer: Seckendorff rocked! No other envoy in this century has accomplished as much as he!

Ghost of Seckendorff *smugly*: Told you so.

Preface writer: as a warrior-diplomat combo, he was unequalled!

All the other envoys: still got imprisoned twice, and once by his own team. We didn't, except Poniatowski.

MT: You know, all that money you poured into Fritz's coffers? (And Wilhelmine's.) I could have used that when I inherited a BANKRUPT COUNTRY. Okay, Fritz was a drop in the bucket. But it's the principle of the thing! All we got in return was one freaking salmon.

But: the biography writer would have been able to interview people who'd actually known Seckendorff in his later years, and have had access to print media long since lost, newspaper accunts, pamphlets and the like.

Let us hope he made good use of them!

Re: Seckendorff

[cahn]

All we got in return was one freaking salmon.

I laughed! I mean, we know that was a really good salmon!

Re: Seckendorff

[cahn]

He also did not have to get the Czarina drunk in order to accomplish the first division of Poland to mutual benefits.

HEE. Poor Poniatowski. (Go Heinrich!)

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

Thought I'd share this description of a French execution by torture with you, which I ran across in the Voltaire bio I'm reading:

The prisoner was placed, around five o’clock, on a scaffold eight and a half feet square. They tied him with heavy cords held by iron rings which immobilised his arms and his thighs. They started by burning his hand in a brazier filled with burning sulphur. Then they took red-hot pincers and tore at his flesh on his arms, his thighs and his chest. They poured molten lead and pitch and boiling oil on all his wounds. These tortures dragged from him the most frightful screams.

Four vigorous horses, whipped on by four executioners’ assistants, pulled with cords on the bleeding and flaming wounds of the patient; these pullings lasted an hour. His limbs stretched but did not part. The executioners finally cut some muscles. His limbs parted one after the other. Damiens, having lost two legs and an arm, was still breathing, and did not expire until his other arm was separated from his bleeding trunk. The limbs and the trunk were thrown on a pyre ten feet from the scaffold.

The individual being tortured is Robert-François Damiens, an evidently mentally ill man who tried to assassinate Louis XV with a pocketknife, but only gave him a scratch. Wikipedia tells me he was the last to undergo this sort of execution.

Remember, the guillotine was a big hit because it was so humane!

Lol, flipping through Kloosterhuis looking for info on Katte portraits, I saw that Peter's effects that were left behind were sold, and the proceeds were used for various expenses, including 6 thalers for the creation of a portrait of him to hang in effigy, and 10 for the executioner's fee.

Re: Peter Keith

[cahn]

Remember, the guillotine was a big hit because it was so humane!

Yeah. I remember learning that (some time after my French teacher fed me all the French Revolution / Terror books) and it just blowing my mind. :(