If our speculation that SD stopped having sex with him post August 1730 (as indicated by the lack of pregnancies thereafter as well as FW for the first time straying and going - unsuccessfully - after another woman) is correct, then he doesn't seem to have, as the euphemism for marital rape goes, tried to force his marital rights.
*nod* The lack of pregnancies could be due to reduced fertility, but the not getting any, if we're correct, does suggest that she said no and he respected that, at least eventually. Because even if she was fully menopausal, Old Testament God let Sarah have a late-in-life pregnancy, so even if FW didn't believe in non-reproductive sex, he could have rationalized sex with a post-menopausal woman if he wanted to force the issue.
The last kid being born just 2.5 months before the big escape attempt did make me suspicious once you pointed it out.
Either fertility or marital relations or both broke down in the 1720s. I mean, there's the obvious first few years of trying desperately for a male heir who doesn't immediately die, but even after the 5 kids in 5 years, there's 6 more kids in 10 years, and then...2 kids in 8 years. It doesn't escape me that 1726-1730 is the height of the double marriage war. (Hmm. What was going on in August 1729?)
she was behaving as a good Christian wife (tm) should, but then FW in other matters was entirely capable of overriding his own standards (ask whipped for nothing Doris Ritter), especially when angry.
On the one hand, we could point out that Doris, though sexually innocent (per Dickens), was consorting with wretched son (tm) and accepting gifts (Fritz spending money! the horror!) during the time leading up to the escape, so I think that's much easier for FW to justify as misbehavior even if she's a virgin. Duhan got locked up for helping obtain the secret library, even though, as far as I know, he was innocent of involvement in the escape.
On the other hand, as you've repeatedly pointed out, the number of men who would accept Pannewitz's refusal like that is low enough that it does call for *some* explanation that FW would.
So I'm wondering whether the fact that in both cases, he accepted the women's right to say no to sex wasn't due to some inner buried standard from his youth.
And that's entirely plausible!
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying FW should be congratulated for NOT doing awful things when he did do so many other awful things. I'm just curious about the factors that might have caused him drawing the line there.
Understood, and I share the curiosity and desire to seek an explanation.
Even when he's ranting at Fritz during the August 1731 submission and painting a "what if" scenario
Which, btw, is very helpful for my fix-it fic where Fritz does escape. Thanks, FW! (I guess.)
Now both daughter and wife are in his complete social power... but I think the difference is that daughters aren't covered by childhood impressions. Wives and mothers are. Maybe that's the difference?
Could be! It seems very plausible to me. And as someone (Hinrichs?) pointed out, FW may have hated everything his father stood for, but he still stubbornly did the dutiful son thing right up through the lavish funeral, at which point the "your new master bids you go to hell" began.
So dutiful son obeys father's wishes, dutiful husband doesn't lock up wife, dutiful father expects 100% perfect obedience from children all the time, and does whatever is necessary to break their wills. Including if the pastors say forcing one's daughter into marriage is a no go.
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Re: Some FW Speculation
Date: 2020-07-23 01:01 am (UTC)*nod* The lack of pregnancies could be due to reduced fertility, but the not getting any, if we're correct, does suggest that she said no and he respected that, at least eventually. Because even if she was fully menopausal, Old Testament God let Sarah have a late-in-life pregnancy, so even if FW didn't believe in non-reproductive sex, he could have rationalized sex with a post-menopausal woman if he wanted to force the issue.
The last kid being born just 2.5 months before the big escape attempt did make me suspicious once you pointed it out.
Hmm. Looking at the birth years of their kids:
1707/08?
1709
1710
1711
1712
1714
1716
1717/18?
1719
1720
1722
1726
1730
Either fertility or marital relations or both broke down in the 1720s. I mean, there's the obvious first few years of trying desperately for a male heir who doesn't immediately die, but even after the 5 kids in 5 years, there's 6 more kids in 10 years, and then...2 kids in 8 years. It doesn't escape me that 1726-1730 is the height of the double marriage war. (Hmm. What was going on in August 1729?)
she was behaving as a good Christian wife (tm) should, but then FW in other matters was entirely capable of overriding his own standards (ask whipped for nothing Doris Ritter), especially when angry.
On the one hand, we could point out that Doris, though sexually innocent (per Dickens), was consorting with wretched son (tm) and accepting gifts (Fritz spending money! the horror!) during the time leading up to the escape, so I think that's much easier for FW to justify as misbehavior even if she's a virgin. Duhan got locked up for helping obtain the secret library, even though, as far as I know, he was innocent of involvement in the escape.
On the other hand, as you've repeatedly pointed out, the number of men who would accept Pannewitz's refusal like that is low enough that it does call for *some* explanation that FW would.
So I'm wondering whether the fact that in both cases, he accepted the women's right to say no to sex wasn't due to some inner buried standard from his youth.
And that's entirely plausible!
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying FW should be congratulated for NOT doing awful things when he did do so many other awful things. I'm just curious about the factors that might have caused him drawing the line there.
Understood, and I share the curiosity and desire to seek an explanation.
Even when he's ranting at Fritz during the August 1731 submission and painting a "what if" scenario
Which, btw, is very helpful for my fix-it fic where Fritz does escape. Thanks, FW! (I guess.)
Now both daughter and wife are in his complete social power... but I think the difference is that daughters aren't covered by childhood impressions. Wives and mothers are. Maybe that's the difference?
Could be! It seems very plausible to me. And as someone (Hinrichs?) pointed out, FW may have hated everything his father stood for, but he still stubbornly did the dutiful son thing right up through the lavish funeral, at which point the "your new master bids you go to hell" began.
So dutiful son obeys father's wishes, dutiful husband doesn't lock up wife, dutiful father expects 100% perfect obedience from children all the time, and does whatever is necessary to break their wills. Including if the pastors say forcing one's daughter into marriage is a no go.