cahn

cahn

Check out the opera clips at Rheinsberg!

(both the real-life place, which

selenak found out hosts a festival for young opera singers! and the community

rheinsberg)

Also! our fandom has been producing lovely fic at a rapid clip (okay, well,

selenak has):

Sibling dysfunction: Promises to Keep and My Brother Narcissus

Sibling dysfunction PLUS sibling M/M love triangle: The moon flies face to face with me

VOLTAIRE! Between the hour and the age

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From:

selenak

So I was idly browsing through

fail_fandomanon when the question was asked "how would your fave get along with their younger self and vice versa", and lo, I thought: MY historical fandom has a canonical reply to this that doesn't involve time travel! Which other fandom can say that?

Incidentally, for what it's worth, I think Older Fritz and younger Fritz would interact slightly differently than Fritz and Heinrich do if there was time travel, simply because older Fritz would try to save Katte (and possibly some other people dying from 18th century medicine rather than despot). If there was no time travel/saving people possibility there, though? We've got the canon.

Which led me to wonder about some other people, and here I'm going for "most interesting" as when they meet in their respective timelines:

MT: young MT would not get why in the last years of her life MT would reach out to Fritz to end the war of Bavarian Successio as long as it was still unbloody. Making peace with that bastard behind your own son's back? How could you, older self! Conversely, she'd be appalled at older MT's depression, denying herself so much she used to enjoy and general stressed relationship with her kids. Older MT would not relate to younger MT as she does to daughter Marie Christina aka "Mimi" (whom she did see as her younger self), because young MT is way more headstrong and less prone to flatter the monarch. Lots of "damn, I was a brat!" feeling on the part of older MT. There'd definitely be clashes. Then reconciliation as older MT uses the time travel to see FS again, even from a distance, and younger MT just gets it.

Voltaire: would get along swimmingly for about an hour of mutual "we're so brilliant at any age, aren't we?" admiration. Then there'd be fireworks. Younger Voltaire would not accept any advice other than business tips (which companies to invest in).

Fredersdorf: would actually get along with his younger self and give useful tips that would be listened to (both re: his own health and various Fritzian dramas). Younger self would be very surprised by older self's appearance but would adapt quickly. The one problem I could foresee is if younger self asks if Fritz is happy in the future, and older Fredersdorf, who time travels shortly before his death, has to admit there's a war going on (and the Glasow assassination attempt also happened recently, which is one of the things he warns himself about).

ETA: young Heinrich with an older self who isn't Fritz: at least I'm not in uniform, so I haven't drunk the cool-aid, that's good. At the same time, it's nice to have a good general repuation, I guess. But wtf is this with writing to goddam Fritz once a week? Why the hell didn't I stay in France once I got there? Where's Wilhelm? And older self, since this is before you meet the Comte, do you mean we're several decades in and STILL haven't found a boyfriend who is exciting and reliable at the same time?

Older Heinrich to young Heinrich: prevent Wilhelm gettting his own command early in the 7 Years War by all means. Even if you have to get on your knees to Fritz and spoil your relationship with Wilhelm for a while by taking the command yourself. But trust me on this. It's the only way to prevent the biggest catastrophe of his and your life.

Any other ideas?

Edited Date: 2020-04-19 10:04 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Heee! This is so great.

Except for the part that's canon. :-((((

But yeah, if these guys had gotten therapy in the 18th century, we never would have heard of them. ~~21st century second chance for everyone to be obscure and happy~~

older Fredersdorf, who time travels shortly before his death, has to admit there's a war going on (and the Glasow assassination attempt also happened recently, which is one of the things he warns himself about).

Even better, we're living in the timeline where youngish Fredersdorf got warned by time-traveling older self about the *successful* Georgii assassination. Fredersdorf gets kicked out of the tent for increasingly insistently trying to warn Fritz off this new hot young thing, without being able to say what his source is.

Consigliere: *knows what he has to do*

Older Fredersdorf never believed alchemy was bad for him, though, so that didn't change. :(

(and possibly some other people dying from 18th century medicine rather than despot)

I can see that.

Older Fritz: Whatever you do, DON'T let Suhm go to St. Petersburg!

Not sure what he would do about Algarotti or Wilhelmine. :/

Voltaire: would get along swimmingly for about an hour of mutual "we're so brilliant at any age, aren't we?" admiration. Then there'd be fireworks.

There is a certain amount of "other self"ness going on with Voltaire and Fritz too.

Younger Voltaire would not accept any advice other than business tips (which companies to invest in).

Lol. Go Voltaire!

Older self Heinrich: *facepalm* And lol about the cool-aid! Don't worry, Heinrich, you may have been his other self, but you stayed true to yourself to the end. Much like a certain someone who is his father's son but also still playing the flute and patronizing the arts, ahem.

Any other ideas?

Katte: What older self?

(I couldn't help it. Poor Katte.)

Émilie: Probably gets along with her younger self? She teaches her and teaches her, so that her time-traveler-educated self is able to progress further than she was on the first iteration (and also knows not to get pregnant later in life), and then the more educated Émilie goes back to give the last one a head start, and on and on it goes. Let's be real, Émilie's the one who invented time travel in this fandom. ;)

Algarotti's younger self to his older self: You STILL haven't found that dream job? And now you're sick and stuck in Italy? I hate Italy! *grumble* At least we're famous, right?
Posterity: For now!

Older Lehndorff to younger Lehndorff: Again, canon.

Older: OMG, I was such a drama queen. Calm down, younger self, Heinrich and you are still BFFs in the future!
Younger: Really?
Older: Yes. Enough with the hyperventilating already. But whatever you do, DON'T let the girl get away! You'll do okay, but she'll be stuck married to a man she despises and you'll be playing "what if" for the rest of your life.

This is fun. :D

From:

cahn

Older Fredersdorf never believed alchemy was bad for him, though, so that didn't change. :(

...maybe Georgii-assassination-timeline!Fredersdorf never lived long enough to find out alchemy was bad for him :P

I love the Émilie, of course she saw the possibility of recursive time travel at once :D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

...maybe Georgii-assassination-timeline!Fredersdorf never lived long enough to find out alchemy was bad for him :P

What I meant was that canonical, our-timeline Fredersdorf, never had reason to believe that mercury poisoning was a thing, *if* he ever had it in the first place, which is just a guess on our part.

But what did you mean, that Fredersdorf died because Fritz did? I was thinking at first defending him (awww), but he has to live long enough to time travel, so...broken heart? :(

From:

cahn

This was before selenak decided Georgii didn't act as part of a conspiracy, so I figured whoever was behind Georgii might eventually decide Fredersdor knew too much or might figure out too much and so got rid of him too, but he was able to time travel right before that. Or osmething. But what you guys came up with is much better :)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I see! Yes, selenak's idea is greaaaat. Especially combined with her previous ideas about Suhm.

Aww, now I have images of Fredersdorf learning that alchemy -> time travel might be a thing, and devoting his life to getting Fritz back. He doesn't have a million jobs now that Fritz is gone, so he can focus on his alchemy, meet other alchemists, and generally be more successful at it. And then he tells his younger self that alchemy is the way and the truth and it works! But revised-timeline self never devotes his life to it, and never meets St. Germain, so he only gets the mercury poisoning.

Fredersdorf: This is still the fixed timeline!

Btw, the internet tells me mercury poisoning was figured out around 1810-1820, more than half a century too late for Fredersdorf. :( Who, let's be real, whatever he died of, the mercury can't have *helped*.

From:

selenak

I love the idea that we're in a timeline that Fredersdorf fixed! Though I would suggest that Georgii actually wasn't acting at anyone's behest. He wasn't a spy, he was a hapless go-getter whose lies got out of control, and when Fritz finally caught on, Georgii panicked and killed him. Since he then shot himself, no one ever found out why he did what he did and on whose orders he acted (everyone assumed he was acting on orders). This is also why it takes the Fredersdorfs some time to uncover what's going on, since Older Fredersdorf works on the assumption that Georgii was a spy and that they need to uncover whose assassin he was, lest he simply gets replaced when taken out of commission. This leads to much secrecy and non-explanations, which leads to young Fredersdorf getting kicked out of the tent.

Oh, and also, let's say that the older selves can only speak to the younger selves. No one else is able to communicate with them. (Hence older Fredersdorf not simply going to Fritz himself.) Older Fredersdorf doesn't warn himself from alchemy because in the original timeline, he and an alchemist whom Fredersdorf in the fixed timeline never meets (Saint-Germain?) actually came up with an alchemical method of time travelling. (Since Lehndorff also canonically meets Saint Germain, this is his own time travel chance.)

Émilie independently developes her method by maths and physics, and I love your idea for her too much alter a single bit.

One thing about Lehndorff, though: alas he can't fix cousin Du Rosey getting away, because if he doesn't marry his original wives in the order he marries them, he wipes his children out of existence. No way fond father Lehndorff is going to do that!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I love your elaboration of the Fredersdorf plot, especially Saint Germain! But yes, especially given how we've developed Georgii, his lies getting out of control and suspicious Fritz catching on is perfect.

Émilie <3

I did think of that with Lehndorff, alas. I guess if we have enough parallel universes, instead of a single time track, he can have his ~~cake and eat it too~~ beloved kids and wife of choice too.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I love the idea that we're in a timeline that Fredersdorf fixed!

Me too, although I should point out that ~~Heinrich~~ MT AW ~~hundreds of thousands of soldiers~~ ~~some Saxon civilians~~ some people disagree on whether it was fixed or broken. :P

Loyal Fredersdorf maintains that it was fixed to the best of his ability. Voltaire grudgingly concurs.

Edited Date: 2020-04-21 03:54 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

LOL, yes. Mind you, due to older Fredersdorf travelling back within his own life time, we'll never know what ramifications the early death of Fritz has on overall German history even in the 19th century, let alone later. It might or might not depend on the unsolvable question as to whether Heinrich without Fritz in his life becomes his best or worst self. If you believe in the timeline being elastic but eventually stable, Prussia's rise to European superpower still happens, just with Heinrich as Prussia's Richelieu (to AW's Louis XIII), and hence everything else.

From:

cahn

I need all these fics now :P Especially the MT one! And the Heinrich one! ...and the Voltaire and Fredersdorf ones too :P

From:

mildred_of_midgard

There are SO MANY fics we've outlined that I need. I've lost track. :P

From:

cahn

I KNOW RIGHT?! I need them all :D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Slightly younger Katte, mid-1730: Can I talk Fritz out of escaping?
Slightly older Katte, November 1730: No. He'll go with you or without you.
Younger Katte: Will I regret having helped him?
Older Katte: No.
Younger Katte: That's all I needed to know.

From:

cahn

:( <333333

...oh. ouch. That makes his last words that much more poignant. Both "I die for you with a thousand joys" and "if I had a thousand lives I would sacrifice them for you."

:((((((((

From:

mildred_of_midgard

:(((((

</3333

But the best part is that you know these quotes and are able to relate them to my imagined scene! Look how far you've come. :D (You also laughed at a chronology joke once, that was awesome. :P)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, and speaking of Katte's last words, something occurred to me last night.

We've spilled quite a bit of ink on the unanswerable question of whether Katte's extremely outspoken piety at the end was genuine. We've seen that his last letter to Fritz reads like it was dictated by FW, down to the Absalom reference and the concern with predestination, and that's made me even more suspicious of Katte's sincerity.

But in addition to all the other possible motives we've adduced for Katte putting on a performance and keeping his true opinions to himself, it occurs to me that a repentant and religious Katte just plain puts FW into a better mood.

Even after a pardon for Katte is off the table, even as he's kneeling in the sand and calling on Lord Jesus as the sword swings, there is one person who potentially benefits from an FW who's in a better mood, one person for whom it might still make a difference.

So in addition to possibly hoping for a pardon, wanting to make his family/father feel better, wanting to set a good example for Fritz on doing whatever it takes to appease FW, wanting to make a good end, wanting to keep his own fears at bay and find some inner calm...Katte might just be trying to tip the royal balance in Fritz's favor.

And it might have helped. Imagine FW hearing that Fritz's BFF/boyfriend was defiant and atheist to the end. Imagine how much *more* suspicious FW would have been of Fritz and the company he kept.

So there's that.

From:

selenak

There is indeed that, and I think it's utterly a plausible Katte motive. Mind you, remember that according to Guy Dickens FW being impressed by Katte's piety and bravery at his death took the form of telling everyone in the winter months of 1730 that Katte had been a promising young man, his family must be heartbroken,and it was utterly Fritz' fault that he died.

(Simultanously, also according to Dickens:
FW: Protestant Pastors, I as a father can marry my daughter to who I tell her to marry regardless to her wishes, right? Pastors: Not so much. Marriage is a sacrament the two participants spend each other. She must be willing.
FW: Fuck that. Wilhelmine, if you ever want your brother to get better conditions and for Sonsine not to end up in the workhouse like that Ritter girl did, you better marry whom I say you marry!)

Edited Date: 2020-04-22 05:16 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Indeed, but this is typical FW! Even so, he might have been in a better mood, even subconsciously, because someone appeased him (and he got to kill someone), and it might have influenced his behavior toward Fritz. Compared to the alternative.

IOW, it may be that this *is* FW in a good(-as-it-gets) mood! :P

From:

cahn

FW: Fuck that.

GAAAAAAH FW! I mean, I guess it's not exactly uncommon to pick and choose from religion to suit one's interests, but, like, FW, EVERYONE AGREES YOU ARE HORRIBLE EXCEPT YOU.

From:

cahn

:( Yeah. Katte: the best :((((

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Voltaire: would get along swimmingly for about an hour of mutual "we're so brilliant at any age, aren't we?" admiration. Then there'd be fireworks. Younger Voltaire would not accept any advice other than business tips (which companies to invest in).

Okay, but what advice does he give his younger self on Fritz? Don't move to Prussia? Move to Prussia, it's worth it? Something else? :P

From:

selenak

Hmmmm. How much older Voltaire are we talking about here? But okay, since he was talking Fritz out of suicide by 1757/1758, I think his feelings, whatever they were,had settled. Orieux thinks the Frankfurt events were traumatic and decisive on a scale only rivaled by the beating (and non-reaction by his noble friends) young Voltaire had gotten from Rohan, and worse because of the Madame Denis factor. I.e. the first one demonstrated to young Voltaire that no matter how much the nobility might flatter him as a wit and poet, he was, when it came down to it, nothing but a court jester with no rights whatsoever if it pleased a prince of the blood to have his servants beat him up. And the later was not only publically humiliating but existentially frightening because it made it clear that no matter the legal status of Frankfurt,if Fritz had wanted he could have had Voltaire locked up for life ~~in Magdeburg~~, tortured or killed, and ditto for Marie-Louise Denis for no other reason than her being Voltaire's niece. So Orieux would undoubtedly vote that older Voltaire advises younger Voltaire to stay the hell away from Prussia and just keep corresponding.

Which, of course, just ensures that younger Voltaire goes to Prussia.

I, personally, think older Voltaire might say something like: when you go to Prussia, don't take the godawful poetry with you once you leave again. Because he would want to keep the dysfunctional yet emotionally and intellectually incredibly intense marriage experience, just without the Frankfurt trauma afterwards, and being Voltaire, would believe he can have his cake and eat it. Naturally, younger Voltaire would not listen to this advice, either.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

being Voltaire, would believe he can have his cake and eat it.

This I can believe.

Naturally, younger Voltaire would not listen to this advice, either.

This too.

Younger Voltaire: God, I hate that man and his interminable verses.
Older Voltaire: Good. Give me the book. Trust me on this one.
Younger Voltaire: Hell, no. I *earned* that godawful poetry. I'm keeping it so I can look at it every day and reminisce about how he is the WORST.
Older Voltaire: But you just said it was godawful.
Younger Voltaire: What does that have to do with anything?

(Yes, I know he didn't have it with him in Frankfurt, but he also still owned it and he was traveling, so...I submit that once he settled down and had all his belongings, he was going to be reading excerpts every day so he could get himself worked up and maintain that dysfunctional high. :P)

From:

cahn

Younger Voltaire: What does that have to do with anything?

HAHAHAHAHA ok I laughed a lot :D

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Frederick the Great, discussion post 14

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