Wonderful, thank you so much for reading this book and telling us all about it. It's been such an unexpected and welcome gift from the universe to have a royal reader just when my reading ability is seriously crippled.
I also love how this fandom is about historiography almost as much as history. It really makes me feel like you two are my people. If we were just recounting what we read without analyzing it, it would be interesting, but I'd feel less at home here in the salon.
On to the book!
He also is indeed opinionated, and not in the sense of Bodanis' romantisizing...No, Orieux' being opinionated translates, for example, into his unabashedly declaring Voltaire's stage plays (a considerable part of his ouevre) as boring, the products of the dead end phase of French classical drama which deserved to die and be revolutionized not long after Voltaire's death.
I would have to check (and since it was a library book, would be non-trivial), but Bodanis is pretty critical, as I recall, of Voltaire's verse. If my memory is correct, it's a mixture of "it's hard for us to appreciate this style now" and outright criticism of the French alexandrine as overly formal, laborious, and repetitive. I don't remember what he thought of the dramas.
says if Voltaire wanted to have a clue that young Crown Prince Fritz was maybe not quite the ideal phiilosopher king in the making after all, he could have gotten it, that they both wanted to use each other while also both being highly receptive to each other's praise - and that they started to get addicted to each other which they couldn't break of. While describing the betrayals on both sides early on before they ever moved in with each other
I approve!
he still thinks Fritz was the more cruel of the two. Not least because Fritz had less to lose. Voltaire was, when it came down to it, a non-noble citizen with whom an absolute King could do whatever he wanted, with no legal protection in the modern sense whatsoever.
I agree with this. As you said, Fritz never learned that punching down was different. All he ever learned was that punching was necessary to stay alive.
Fritz as early as 1740 (!!!) writes to Jordan complaining that Voltaire wanted him to pay Voltaire's travel expenses and actually says "no court jester was ever so expensive";
We had discussed the quote before, but you're right, I hadn't mentioned the year. I approve of your three exclamation marks. He's only just beginning to pay off his debts to half the sugar daddies of Europe, and he's thinking, "Wow, what a money-grabber Voltaire is."
You're right: he prefers those who pay to those who are paid precisely because those who are paid are the competition! :P
as late as the 1770s, when Fritz was already a living legend and had been for decades, his fame assured in every way, he kept writing wistfull that if only Voltaire was still present in Sanssouci, "one could have become something". (Orieux wonders what else Fritz thinks he could have become with Voltaire at his side that he didn't become already, and finds this remark oddly touching.)
Awww. Well, I really think Hille (back in 1730) was right, Fritz wanted to be a poet even more than he wanted to be a musician, he just lacked the talent, and that frustrated him to no end. I mean, it's not just Hille, but Fritz's behavior throughout his life, in his correspondence and everyone's memoirs. (Remember Mitchell? "He made me offer up my opinion on his poetry! It was nerve-wracking, but at least he takes criticism well." Catt: "At least he didn't insist on playing Cyrano for you!" Lucchesini: "I actually liked his poetry! No lie.") Fritz wrote verse like he was running out of time, to adapt a line from a popular musical. ;)
It's sad but not surprising to me that he never stopped thinking Voltaire could have brought him up to a higher level if only they'd had enough time. He apparently unquestioningly adopted all of Voltaire's changes whenever the dirty linen returned to him with cleaning suggestions. And, subconscious addiction aside, improving his poetry and French in general was the overt reason for wanting Voltaire so badly, and was what he meant by "squeeze the orange." I seem to recall him saying to someone (d'Argens? Mitchell?) after the Seven Years' War that he would rather have written (an opera? a drama? something artistic/literary) than won a war.
Oh, Fritz. :-( <3
All the additional information on the relationships between other people that we didn't know about was really interesting! Thank you for all that. It's good to keep fleshing out our knowledge of the actors.
(No mention whether the Fritz one shows traces of darts.)
Darts and kisses, you heard it here first. :P
In Ferney, Voltaire had a portrait of Émilie and one of Fritz.
It's amaaazing how not only do Fritz and Émilie treat each other like romantic rivals, but Voltaire treats them like the two great loves of his life even after moving on. It also reminds me of your wonderful line, which may be my favorite line in the fic and one of my all-time favorite lines from you, from the Fraire fic: "Yet twice in his life, he has touched fire itself." <3
outright criticism of the French alexandrine as overly formal, laborious, and repetitive
If so, that was what Goethe thought, too. ("Like a tapeworm" was what he once actualyl said.) Mind you, he made an exception for Racine, much like everyone else I've seen, who keep on about how Racine is the most beautiful French in existence. (I've never learned enough French to judge these things, but I do know Racine has a reputation of being fiendishly difficult to translate. Schiller tried with Phèdre once, and failed, and if SCHILLER can't do it...
He's only just beginning to pay off his debts to half the sugar daddies of Europe, and he's thinking, "Wow, what a money-grabber Voltaire is."
I think that's probably another reason why 1740!Fritz assumes Voltaire is getting money from Émilie, because if not (and if Voltaire is even willing to invest money there), it does translate into "he likes her better than me!". Meanwhile, Voltaire might be writing to about to become King Fritz that he's dreaming of his prince like of a mistress but he's not yet addicted and thus would like to be compensated for his travelling expenses by royalty, thanks a lot.
You're probably already familiar with a version of this from Bodanis, but here's how Orieux sums up the situation just before Émilie's death, i.e. ten years later:
Friedrich is convinced that Émilie is the only obstacle (to Voltaire joining him) and so he suggests a bargain to her. She should send him the poet, and he will send her a survevyor (einen Geometer, which is what Fritz called Maupertuis) from his new Academy in Berlin. Will she accept? Voltaire replies that she needs to give birth to her child before she can make a decision, and Friedrich easily replies: "Mme du CHatelet will give birth in September. You are not a midwife, she will be perfectly fine doing that without you." And since he is tired of always begging without getting something, he adds: "Moreover, be assured that the joys someone causes voluntarily without having to be prodded all the time are received with more gratitude and are more pleasant than those for which one has to beg for so long." Whereupon Voltaire returns not without firmness: "Neither M. Bartenstin nor M. Bastuchef, as powerful as they are, nor Frederick the Great, who makes them tremble, can stop me right now from fulfilling a duty which I regard as binding. No, I'm not the childmaker, or a doctor, or a midwife, but I am her friend, and even for your majesty's sake I will not leave a woman who can die this September. The birth seems to be very dangerous."
And I think there you have a reason why Fritz, ten years after her death, is still gossiping about Émilie with D'Argens. Much as it hurt her that Voltaire despite Fritz' misogyny made these trips in 1740 and 1743, it evidently hurt Fritz that for as long as Voltaire still did have a choice, he picked Émilie.
(On a less tragic note, the offer of "a surveyor" in trade for Voltaire: oh Fritz. Presumably this was less rethorical than offering "all my new possessions" in 1740, but seriously, the one "Geometer" whom I know Fritz had at his disposal in the year of Émilie's death was Maupertuis, and the idea he offered a trade, presumably without consulting Maupertuis, does crack me up.)
It's amaaazing how not only do Fritz and Émilie treat each other like romantic rivals, but Voltaire treats them like the two great loves of his life even after moving on. It also reminds me of your wonderful line, which may be my favorite line in the fic and one of my all-time favorite lines from you, from the Fraire fic: "Yet twice in his life, he has touched fire itself." <3
Aw, thank you. I think he did love them both. Mind you, he also loved his niece, which Orieux along with every biographier and article writer I've come across so far treats as incomprehensible (not because of the niece factor, but because: unlike Émilie, not a genius, unlike Fritz and Émilie, not charismatic and witty, after her youth had passed, downright fat, and openly greedy for money; to which one can say that Madame Denis throughout her life never had a problem attracting lovers - she and Voltaire were never exclusive -, so she probably was sexy in whichever shape she was in, that she liked money would have been very hypocritical of Voltaire to condemn, and since the letters which finally outed their relationship to the world when they were published were written in Italian, unlike the "regular" letters, means she was fluent enough to correspond on that language, so she can't have been stupid, though yes, definitely not a genius. Anyway, the biographers and journalists writing about Voltaire that I've read so far sound about her the way Lehndorff sounds about Kaphengst, so the reply to "but what did he see in her?" was probably the same.
(Orieux, when quoting the Fritz letter where he goes "I'm tired hearing about your niece!" (re: Frankfurt): So with you there, Fritz, so with you there. Orieux, otoh, whenever Fritz is insensitive about Émilie: such a bastard. Orieux: does not even pretend biographical impartiality.)
In addition to keeping in contact with Saint-Lambert, Voltaire also kept in contact with the Marquis du Chatelet for as long as he lived. (Btw, I couldn't believe it when I spotted him in Austrian Trenck's memoirs!). And no offense to either gentleman, but I think that was about Émilie, about missing her. Just like he couldn't even pretend indifference to any news about Fritz. And I think the main reason why Voltaire kept bitching about Maupertuis even after the guy was dead was because Fritz had picked his side.
(On a less tragic note, the offer of "a surveyor" in trade for Voltaire: oh Fritz. Presumably this was less rethorical than offering "all my new possessions" in 1740, but seriously, the one "Geometer" whom I know Fritz had at his disposal in the year of Émilie's death was Maupertuis, and the idea he offered a trade, presumably without consulting Maupertuis, does crack me up.)
HA. That is hilarious, indeed.
Zinsser thought that Voltaire liked Mme Denis partially because she was so very different from Émilie, and one of her pieces of (weak) evidence was their writing in Italian, the "language of love" rather than the language of intellect. Though that may be going a bit far into speculation, it certainly is plausible, although of course Zinsser has a very strong pro-Émilie and anti-Voltaire bias :)
Orieux, otoh, whenever Fritz is insensitive about Émilie: such a bastard. Orieux: does not even pretend biographical impartiality.)
ahahahaha I have to say I like you, Orieux
And no offense to either gentleman, but I think that was about Émilie, about missing her. Just like he couldn't even pretend indifference to any news about Fritz.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Jean Orieux: The Life of Voltaire - I
Date: 2020-04-07 12:53 pm (UTC)I also love how this fandom is about historiography almost as much as history. It really makes me feel like you two are my people. If we were just recounting what we read without analyzing it, it would be interesting, but I'd feel less at home here in the salon.
On to the book!
He also is indeed opinionated, and not in the sense of Bodanis' romantisizing...No, Orieux' being opinionated translates, for example, into his unabashedly declaring Voltaire's stage plays (a considerable part of his ouevre) as boring, the products of the dead end phase of French classical drama which deserved to die and be revolutionized not long after Voltaire's death.
I would have to check (and since it was a library book, would be non-trivial), but Bodanis is pretty critical, as I recall, of Voltaire's verse. If my memory is correct, it's a mixture of "it's hard for us to appreciate this style now" and outright criticism of the French alexandrine as overly formal, laborious, and repetitive. I don't remember what he thought of the dramas.
says if Voltaire wanted to have a clue that young Crown Prince Fritz was maybe not quite the ideal phiilosopher king in the making after all, he could have gotten it, that they both wanted to use each other while also both being highly receptive to each other's praise - and that they started to get addicted to each other which they couldn't break of. While describing the betrayals on both sides early on before they ever moved in with each other
I approve!
he still thinks Fritz was the more cruel of the two. Not least because Fritz had less to lose. Voltaire was, when it came down to it, a non-noble citizen with whom an absolute King could do whatever he wanted, with no legal protection in the modern sense whatsoever.
I agree with this. As you said, Fritz never learned that punching down was different. All he ever learned was that punching was necessary to stay alive.
Fritz as early as 1740 (!!!) writes to Jordan complaining that Voltaire wanted him to pay Voltaire's travel expenses and actually says "no court jester was ever so expensive";
We had discussed the quote before, but you're right, I hadn't mentioned the year. I approve of your three exclamation marks. He's only just beginning to pay off his debts to half the sugar daddies of Europe, and he's thinking, "Wow, what a money-grabber Voltaire is."
You're right: he prefers those who pay to those who are paid precisely because those who are paid are the competition! :P
as late as the 1770s, when Fritz was already a living legend and had been for decades, his fame assured in every way, he kept writing wistfull that if only Voltaire was still present in Sanssouci, "one could have become something". (Orieux wonders what else Fritz thinks he could have become with Voltaire at his side that he didn't become already, and finds this remark oddly touching.)
Awww. Well, I really think Hille (back in 1730) was right, Fritz wanted to be a poet even more than he wanted to be a musician, he just lacked the talent, and that frustrated him to no end. I mean, it's not just Hille, but Fritz's behavior throughout his life, in his correspondence and everyone's memoirs. (Remember Mitchell? "He made me offer up my opinion on his poetry! It was nerve-wracking, but at least he takes criticism well." Catt: "At least he didn't insist on playing Cyrano for you!" Lucchesini: "I actually liked his poetry! No lie.") Fritz wrote verse like he was running out of time, to adapt a line from a popular musical. ;)
It's sad but not surprising to me that he never stopped thinking Voltaire could have brought him up to a higher level if only they'd had enough time. He apparently unquestioningly adopted all of Voltaire's changes whenever the dirty linen returned to him with cleaning suggestions. And, subconscious addiction aside, improving his poetry and French in general was the overt reason for wanting Voltaire so badly, and was what he meant by "squeeze the orange." I seem to recall him saying to someone (d'Argens? Mitchell?) after the Seven Years' War that he would rather have written (an opera? a drama? something artistic/literary) than won a war.
Oh, Fritz. :-( <3
All the additional information on the relationships between other people that we didn't know about was really interesting! Thank you for all that. It's good to keep fleshing out our knowledge of the actors.
(No mention whether the Fritz one shows traces of darts.)
Darts and kisses, you heard it here first. :P
In Ferney, Voltaire had a portrait of Émilie and one of Fritz.
It's amaaazing how not only do Fritz and Émilie treat each other like romantic rivals, but Voltaire treats them like the two great loves of his life even after moving on. It also reminds me of your wonderful line, which may be my favorite line in the fic and one of my all-time favorite lines from you, from the Fraire fic: "Yet twice in his life, he has touched fire itself." <3
Re: Jean Orieux: The Life of Voltaire - I
Date: 2020-04-07 02:47 pm (UTC)If so, that was what Goethe thought, too. ("Like a tapeworm" was what he once actualyl said.) Mind you, he made an exception for Racine, much like everyone else I've seen, who keep on about how Racine is the most beautiful French in existence. (I've never learned enough French to judge these things, but I do know Racine has a reputation of being fiendishly difficult to translate. Schiller tried with Phèdre once, and failed, and if SCHILLER can't do it...
He's only just beginning to pay off his debts to half the sugar daddies of Europe, and he's thinking, "Wow, what a money-grabber Voltaire is."
I think that's probably another reason why 1740!Fritz assumes Voltaire is getting money from Émilie, because if not (and if Voltaire is even willing to invest money there), it does translate into "he likes her better than me!". Meanwhile, Voltaire might be writing to about to become King Fritz that he's dreaming of his prince like of a mistress but he's not yet addicted and thus would like to be compensated for his travelling expenses by royalty, thanks a lot.
You're probably already familiar with a version of this from Bodanis, but here's how Orieux sums up the situation just before Émilie's death, i.e. ten years later:
Friedrich is convinced that Émilie is the only obstacle (to Voltaire joining him) and so he suggests a bargain to her. She should send him the poet, and he will send her a survevyor (einen Geometer, which is what Fritz called Maupertuis) from his new Academy in Berlin. Will she accept? Voltaire replies that she needs to give birth to her child before she can make a decision, and Friedrich easily replies: "Mme du CHatelet will give birth in September. You are not a midwife, she will be perfectly fine doing that without you." And since he is tired of always begging without getting something, he adds: "Moreover, be assured that the joys someone causes voluntarily without having to be prodded all the time are received with more gratitude and are more pleasant than those for which one has to beg for so long." Whereupon Voltaire returns not without firmness: "Neither M. Bartenstin nor M. Bastuchef, as powerful as they are, nor Frederick the Great, who makes them tremble, can stop me right now from fulfilling a duty which I regard as binding. No, I'm not the childmaker, or a doctor, or a midwife, but I am her friend, and even for your majesty's sake I will not leave a woman who can die this September. The birth seems to be very dangerous."
And I think there you have a reason why Fritz, ten years after her death, is still gossiping about Émilie with D'Argens. Much as it hurt her that Voltaire despite Fritz' misogyny made these trips in 1740 and 1743, it evidently hurt Fritz that for as long as Voltaire still did have a choice, he picked Émilie.
(On a less tragic note, the offer of "a surveyor" in trade for Voltaire: oh Fritz. Presumably this was less rethorical than offering "all my new possessions" in 1740, but seriously, the one "Geometer" whom I know Fritz had at his disposal in the year of Émilie's death was Maupertuis, and the idea he offered a trade, presumably without consulting Maupertuis, does crack me up.)
It's amaaazing how not only do Fritz and Émilie treat each other like romantic rivals, but Voltaire treats them like the two great loves of his life even after moving on. It also reminds me of your wonderful line, which may be my favorite line in the fic and one of my all-time favorite lines from you, from the Fraire fic: "Yet twice in his life, he has touched fire itself." <3
Aw, thank you. I think he did love them both. Mind you, he also loved his niece, which Orieux along with every biographier and article writer I've come across so far treats as incomprehensible (not because of the niece factor, but because: unlike Émilie, not a genius, unlike Fritz and Émilie, not charismatic and witty, after her youth had passed, downright fat, and openly greedy for money; to which one can say that Madame Denis throughout her life never had a problem attracting lovers - she and Voltaire were never exclusive -, so she probably was sexy in whichever shape she was in, that she liked money would have been very hypocritical of Voltaire to condemn, and since the letters which finally outed their relationship to the world when they were published were written in Italian, unlike the "regular" letters, means she was fluent enough to correspond on that language, so she can't have been stupid, though yes, definitely not a genius. Anyway, the biographers and journalists writing about Voltaire that I've read so far sound about her the way Lehndorff sounds about Kaphengst, so the reply to "but what did he see in her?" was probably the same.
(Orieux, when quoting the Fritz letter where he goes "I'm tired hearing about your niece!" (re: Frankfurt): So with you there, Fritz, so with you there. Orieux, otoh, whenever Fritz is insensitive about Émilie: such a bastard. Orieux: does not even pretend biographical impartiality.)
In addition to keeping in contact with Saint-Lambert, Voltaire also kept in contact with the Marquis du Chatelet for as long as he lived. (Btw, I couldn't believe it when I spotted him in Austrian Trenck's memoirs!). And no offense to either gentleman, but I think that was about Émilie, about missing her. Just like he couldn't even pretend indifference to any news about Fritz. And I think the main reason why Voltaire kept bitching about Maupertuis even after the guy was dead was because Fritz had picked his side.
Re: Jean Orieux: The Life of Voltaire - I
Date: 2020-04-08 05:19 am (UTC)HA. That is hilarious, indeed.
Zinsser thought that Voltaire liked Mme Denis partially because she was so very different from Émilie, and one of her pieces of (weak) evidence was their writing in Italian, the "language of love" rather than the language of intellect. Though that may be going a bit far into speculation, it certainly is plausible, although of course Zinsser has a very strong pro-Émilie and anti-Voltaire bias :)
Orieux, otoh, whenever Fritz is insensitive about Émilie: such a bastard. Orieux: does not even pretend biographical impartiality.)
ahahahaha I have to say I like you, Orieux
And no offense to either gentleman, but I think that was about Émilie, about missing her. Just like he couldn't even pretend indifference to any news about Fritz.
<3333