cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 12

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

I must say, all the "I totally saw through Fritz, Mom!...during the sixteen hours per day we talked to each other" cracks me up to no end. (I mean. 16 hours? Per day?)

That jumped out at me too! Haha, Joseph.

MT: You realize any mother would see right through this?

ViennaJoe: Mooom! You should know all about being a sleepless workaholic. Of course we talked for sixteen hours per day! It was very important for, um, foreign affairs, and the well-being of our countries, and stuff. Look, I'm very dedicated to my job!

Volz, bw, has a more thorough version of Joseph's letter in his "Gespräche mit Friedrich dem Großen"

Oh, nice, I'm glad that turned out to have useful material.

in order to be polite, Fritz and his entourage wore the Austrian white uniforms "to spare the Austrians the sight of the Prussian blue (they) have encountered on the field so often", as one of the Austrian delegation was told, who in his letter snarked, you know, we could have born the sight, and also it wouldn't have showcased the King's tobacco snuff as much as the white uniform did.

Everything about this makes me laugh so hard, from Fritz's arrogance to the Austrian snark. I kind of suspect the Austrian might be underestimating the extent to which the snuff is impossible to miss on any uniform, given the sheer number of other reports we have throughout the decades that read "I saw the King for five minutes from a distance, and the number one thing I noticed was that he was covered in snuff from head to toe." Maybe it's *more* visible on white, I don't know how dark 18C Spanish snuff was, but I suspect trying not to showcase it was a lost cause. Definitely not worth giving up that amazingly arrogant move, either way. ILU, problematic fave. :P

(Fritz: You don't think Heinrich would have gotten anything from anyone if I weren't awesome, do you?
Heinrich: You don't think you'd have gotten anything other than pissing everone else off AGAIN if you' been the one to negotiate, do you?)

LOL. They both have a point, I think? But far be it from either of them to acknowledge this.

There is a famous but apocryphal quip by Fritz which gets quoted on this a lot, but no one has ever been able to find it in any of his letters or even in his described conversations in other people's memoirs, so biographers were reluctantly forced to admit that it was probably invented after the fact by other people but sounded so much like something he would have said that it stuck.

Aww, I didn't know it was apocryphal! That's too bad. I guess when you're known for wit, you accumulate quotes that sound witty. Churchill, Wilde, and Twain know all about this.

ETA: And I have made my own rhyming, not prose translation! *shares wit pride*

*applauds*

Elaborating further on the argument that the very thing which made Fritz great was his imperfection

I definitely think Goethe's onto something there. Fritz's inability to back down was his single most salient trait, and it manifested in good, bad, and making-a-name-for-himself ways. His whole life is a very interesting intersection of innate personality, environment, and trauma. And while I think he might have been expansionist without the trauma, and he always would have preferred French, I do suspect some of his need to attack German while never ever reading it came from FW bludgeoning him with German for so long. (

cahn, as one small example, he was only allowed to speak German and people were only allowed to speak German to him at Küstrin.) I think hating German, as opposed to loving French, became part of his fight for his identity, long after FW was gone and he'd lost sight of the reason for the fight.

From:

selenak

Oh absolutely. (I'm also reminded of Fontane's needling in FW's direction when he reports Heinrich pretending not to speak German at all in his Rheinsberg chapter and adds snarkily this was undoubtedly the result of an education "which put all the emphasis on the German and vilified the French".) If FW - whose own German was clumsy, it being a second language to him as well - hadn't made such a point of ramming it down the throat of his oldest son (and of the entire family, but especially Fritz) - it wouldn't have become such an identity question. BTW, Volz' "Conversations" contain an amusing passage about one of several encounters between Fritz and Gottsched: about the German language, as told by Nicolai, who was present:

Among other things they talked about the qualities of the German language. The King described it as rough, clusmy, etc., and Gottsched of course defended the language he'd written in praise of, and this with many exclamations. The King disregarded this and took more and more from the German language until he finally said: it had so many dislikeable sounds which made it ill suited to eloquence and poetry. For example, said the King, a rival was called "Nebenbuhler", what a fatal sound "buhler" has! This hre repeated a couple of times, and emphasized the "uh".

Gottsched: But your majesty, it sounds exactly like "Boule"! (Which it does, btw.)

The King who was disconcerted by this reply ignored it and continued: "And the German consonsants! My ears always hurt whenever I listen to German names; there's so much Kah and Peh all the time! (He put the emphasis on K and P.) Knap - Knip - Klotz - Krock! His own name, how hard! Gottsched! Five consonants - tsscchhh - what a sound! The German language is simply rough, and what is soft and pleasing can't be pronounced as agreeable in it as it can in other languages!

Gottsched: Begging your majesty's pardon. The most beautiful and most tender passion humanity has to offer we Germans all "Liebe", whereas the French call it - "Amour!" Now you can imagine that he, too, put the emphasis on the "our". And if you know how rough and screaming Gottsched's voice could get, you can imagine how awful he managed to make the u and the r sound in his mouth.

(Fritz seems to have carried a grudge for not winning that argument, since he calls Gottsched pedantic and a couple of other unflattering things to Catt.)

All this is always worth keeping in mind when realising how big a concession on Fritz' part it was to keep talking and corresponding in German with Fredersdorf instead of demanding that Fredersdorf had to learn French. Liebe indeed.

White uniforms: I only regret I didn't know this detail when writing my Yuletide AU section 4! Because of course MT would have noticed at once.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

If FW - whose own German was clumsy, it being a second language to him as well - hadn't made such a point of ramming it down the throat of his oldest son (and of the entire family, but especially Fritz) - it wouldn't have become such an identity question.

To paraphrase a very witty person, "You broke it, FW, you bought it."

Thank you for sharing that anecdote. Fritz is just amazingly incapable of reason on this subject.

All this is always worth keeping in mind when realising how big a concession on Fritz' part it was to keep talking and corresponding in German with Fredersdorf instead of demanding that Fredersdorf had to learn French. Liebe indeed.

Indeed. <3 It is surprising on both Fritz's and Fredersdorf's side that the latter never picked up enough French for them to communicate in (or that he hid it really well :P).

White uniforms: I only regret I didn't know this detail when writing my Yuletide AU section 4! Because of course MT would have noticed at once.

I regret that too! It's amazing how far we progress each month.

(Next Yuletide is going to be so much more informed. :D)

From:

selenak

Indeed. <3 It is surprising on both Fritz's and Fredersdorf's side that the latter never picked up enough French for them to communicate in (or that he hid it really well :P).

As to what motivated Fredersdorf to either not learn French or pretend he didn't: my current guess it had to do with a) maintaining his identity, his sense of self, and b) was a smart move not to look inferior vis a vis the Algarottis of Fritz' circle.

re: b) no matter how well he was or would have been able to learn French as an adult (who had a lot of other things to do which he couldn't delegate!), he would never have been able to speak and write French on a level approaching that of Fritz' intellectual friends. He'd have sounded clumsy and foolish next to them, and he knew this meant volunteering for humiliation and ridicule at worst and silent disappointment at best. I mean, look at Fritz going on about AW's educational deficits in the late 30s, and Voltaire making that "didn't learn to read or write" crack. And AW might have been lagging behind in his education, but he did get one as a prince from early childhood onwards. Frederdorf would just not have been able to catch up on any Fritz satisfying level. Meanwhile, he could be extremely competent at the things he did do, and Fritz respected that.

and a) So much of his life was about Fritz that I think insisting on German as their language was something like insisting on alchemy, and his own medication, despite Fritz constantly telling him otherwise. It was a way of of saying "This is me, not you; I love you, but I exist apart from you". Maintaining that core of self probably allowed him to remain sane and have no nervous breakdowns. (As opposed to ruining his physical health.)

And again, that Fritz accepted the language instead of doing a "my way or no way" here remains as powerful a testimony as the open tenderness of those letters.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Frederdorf would just not have been able to catch up on any Fritz satisfying level.

This is all very true. He was never going to be a native speaker, and while he might well get up to enough proficiency to equal or surpass Fritz's awkward German, the process of getting there in that environment would have been painful, good point, and the end result wasn't going to be worth walking across those coals.

So much of his life was about Fritz that I think insisting on German as their language was something like insisting on alchemy, and his own medication, despite Fritz constantly telling him otherwise. It was a way of of saying "This is me, not you; I love you, but I exist apart from you". Maintaining that core of self probably allowed him to remain sane and have no nervous breakdowns.

I like this a lot. Like that quote

cahn found,

Good counterpoint requires two qualities: (1) a meaningful or harmonious relationship between the lines, and (2) some degree of independence or individuality within the lines themselves.

And not only asserting his identity, but knowing that Fritz loved him enough to accept communicating in German with him, not just to conduct business like the rest of his German communications, but to carry on a close personal relationship.

And again, that Fritz accepted the language instead of doing a "my way or no way" here remains as powerful a testimony as the open tenderness of those letters.

Indeed. They're such a good ship. <3 I share

cahn's joy that we've found no evidence for that unsourced embezzlement allegation.

From:

selenak

Hard same! Which is why I also am doubtful - unless someone finally gives us a direct citation like "see letter of Prussian official X/foreign envoy Y" - re: the handsome hussar story. On various levels and both sides. I mean, Fritz writes some of the most tender letters not in the first flush of infatuation (which we have zilch documents on, because Küstrin and Neuruppin), but years, even decades later. This does not sound like someone who'd have considered exchanging Fredersdorf for a random handsome guy at some point in the Silesian Wars. (And it would have had to be the Silesian wars, given when Fredersdorf died.) Also, since some of the earliest Fredersdorf letters are from the Silesian wars, I took this to mean Federsdorf wasn't with Fritz in the field to begin with, he was in Berlin keeping an eye on things from there, so how could he have been refused entry to the royal tent?

Now, of course, jealousy doesn't have to be rational and triggered by an actual cause. More often than not, it probably isn't. So it's entirely possible Fredersdorf thought he might get replaced by Mr. Handsome (if there is any basis to the story). At least replaced in the emotional sense, not in the professional, given the sheer number of tasks Fritz kept giving him. But somehow I can't equate someone this insecure about his status in Fritz' life with someone who has the confidence to stick with the German, keep alchemy as a hobby and keeps consulting non-Fritz approved doctors.

In conclusion: contemporary source, please, or I don't buy it.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

) Also, since some of the earliest Fredersdorf letters are from the Silesian wars, I took this to mean Federsdorf wasn't with Fritz in the field to begin with, he was in Berlin keeping an eye on things from there, so how could he have been refused entry to the royal tent?

I have been wondering the same thing. We don't have a thorough enough correspondence to be certain that Fredersdorf was *never* in the field with him, but I'm not aware of any evidence to corroborate the claim that he was, whereas we do have letters from Fritz in the field to Fredersdorf in Berlin, so it's quite likely Fredersdorf was doing civilian stuff there the whole time.

So it's entirely possible Fredersdorf thought he might get replaced by Mr. Handsome (if there is any basis to the story).

I mean, IF there's any basis to this at all, this entire story might have grown out of Fritz wanting casual sex with random hussar and wanting some privacy for it. (If he was into having sex with Fredersdorf, I doubt it was entirely an exclusive relationship on his side.) Gossip could take it from there. But I don't see Fredersdorf murdering or driving someone to suicide over it, for the reasons you mention as well as others. I'm willing to bet he knows Fritz well enough to know how to keep himself indispensable over some pretty face.

And again; I question whether Fredersdorf was in the field or Fritz was into casual sex with his men. Post-Fredersdorf Glasow maybe? But there is a distinct lack of evidence for Handsome Hussar. (I also don't buy Lehndorff's story that Fredersdorf stepped down out of jealousy over Glasow, seriously.)

~~Pics~~ Documents or it didn't happen. :P

From:

selenak

I also don't buy Lehndorff's story that Fredersdorf stepped down out of jealousy over Glasow, seriously.

I think our Lehndorff made the same mistake many people do, to use their own emotional spectrum and likely reactions as a basis to draw conclusions from. Don't forget, as he admits in his annotation to his youthful entries which he made decades later, he was ragingly jealous of anyone Heinrich favoured as a young man. So he was likely to assume this was how Fredersdorf must have felt about someone like Glasow.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Agree 100%. And Fredersdorf wasn't in Lehndorff's position: he *was* the secure favorite and always had been. I think he was in a position to be chill about any wandering eye Fritz might have had. And after years of bad health (we've seen their letters) and his impending death, which Lehndorff couldn't have known about when he wrote that entry, I don't think Fredersdorf *needed* a reason to step down beyond "I literally cannot do this job any more, no matter how hard I try. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."

From:

cahn

I agree with all this too!

From:

cahn

That makes so much sense. <3

Fritz/Fredersdorf is my Fritz OTP, and I think in a lot of ways it's because Fredersdorf could maintain his sense of self but still be what Fritz needed. And as you and mildred have said in the past, it makes sense that a lot of this worked because he was not nobility.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

You know, Fritz/Fredersdorf absolutely fits the pattern of what's normally my OTP and totally should be my OTP in this fandom. Fritz/Katte fits the pattern of my usual NOTPs. And yet!

I try very hard to get more excited about Fritz/Fredersdorf, because it should be right up my alley, but so far, I like it but don't love it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

it's because Fredersdorf could maintain his sense of self but still be what Fritz needed.

I still think your counterpoint quote was THE BEST.

Edited Date: 2020-03-03 11:02 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

Gottsched: But your majesty, it sounds exactly like "Boule"! (Which it does, btw.)

HAHAHAHAHA

And if you know how rough and screaming Gottsched's voice could get, you can imagine how awful he managed to make the u and the r sound in his mouth.

Heeeee. Gottsched, you are my hero.

White uniforms: I only regret I didn't know this detail when writing my Yuletide AU section 4! Because of course MT would have noticed at once.

I mean, if you wanted to sneak over and put it in, I wouldn't mind :P :) But yeah, she would have definitely noticed and either thought or said something snarky :D

From:

selenak

If I can come up with a suitably snarky thought or dialogue, I shall insert it, then.

Gottsched would be gratified to be anyone's hero.Like Fritz, he had the misfortune to outlive his glory days. He was essential as a reformer of German theatre and as a promoter of the German language for artistic uses, but he was also totally married to the idea of the Aristotelian three unities and the French drama as the highest form of art. When duking it out with the slightly younger Lessing (currently employed by Fritz' sister Charlotte as librarian) who thought that these rules were constraining and strangling the life out of drama, had to go, and hooray for the British model to follow instead, he lost as far as the new crop of writers was concerned, and he never reconciled himself to the fact. Since the next crop of writers were the highlights of German literature, this meant he had the reputation of a dusty old pedant for at least a century before it swung back to "modern for his time, he just outlived it".

From:

gambitten

There is a famous but apocryphal quip by Fritz which gets quoted on this a lot, but no one has ever been able to find it in any of his letters or even in his described conversations in other people's memoirs, so biographers were reluctantly forced to admit that it was probably invented after the fact by other people but sounded so much like something he would have said that it stuck.

Just dropping in to note that the origins of this quote were investigated by Jürgen Luh here. To sum it up, "she cried but she took" or variations thereof are basically a summary of what French Ambassador Prince Louis de Rohan wrote about MT in a 1772 dispatch. Many years later a certain Maletzki, an editorial secretary of the "Communist International" newspaper and fabricator of various Fritz related quotes, published in 1922 that "Friedrich II once said(...) 'she cried but she took'". And this was picked up by Egon Friedell in 1928 in his extremely successful "Cultural History of Modern Times" book series, and was accepted by historians for many years from then on.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

All hail

gambitten!

From:

selenak

Thank you so much for linking that article! It was new to me, and not only does it provide us with a great summary of how that quote came into existence, but Luh actually provides me at last with the source for another, actual Fritz quote about MT, "Das apostolische Rabenaas". (It's from a letter to the Marquis D'Argens, and Luh provides a proper citation ( Friedrich der Große: Mein lieber Marquis! Sein Briefwechsel mit Jean-Baptiste d’Argens während des Siebenjährigen Krieges, hrsg. v. Hans Schumann, Zürich 1985, S. 134.).