Frederick the Great discussion post 12

[cahn]

Every time I am amazed and enchanted that this is still going on! Truly DW is the Earthly Paradise!

All the good stuff continues to be archived at rheinsberg :)

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Prussia and the Polish partitions

[mildred_of_midgard]

the newly aquired Poland, err, even Easterner Prussia

This made me laugh, but just to clarify for cahn, the part of Poland acquired in the First Partition of Poland was actually West Prussia, which is--logically enough--west of East Prussia.

It's a little bit confusing, because there's the historic region of Prussia, which is in modern Poland, and there's the kingdom of Prussia, which is everything ruled by the Hohenzollerns after Grandpa F1 got permission to call himself a king. And F1, FW, and Fritz, as part of their Kingdom of Prussia, rule only part of historic Prussia and a lot of stuff that isn't Prussia.

Okay, you know what, it's extremely confusing. Let me begin at the beginning. I'll give territories speaking parts, just to keep things readable.

Middle Ages
Brandenburg: I'm the area around Berlin! I'm part of the Holy Roman Empire.
Hohenzollerns: I'm the family that rules Brandenburg. We're electors, which means we get to vote on who gets to be the Holy Roman Emperor.
Prussia: I'm a territory in Poland! I'm not part of the Holy Roman Empire. Oops, now it's 1466 and I'm two territories.

Early Modern period
Duchy of Prussia: I'm the eastern half of Prussia. Check out approximately where I live on this map.
Royal Prussia: I'm the western half. I didn't like how Prussia was being run, so I seceded! I'm an autonomous Polish dependency, which means my Facebook relationship status is "in a relationship with Poland" and also "it's complicated." Check out approximately where I live on this map.
Hohenzollerns: Still here, still in charge of Brandenburg, and busy inheriting, purchasing, and conquering new territories wherever I can. Oh, what's this? It's 1618 and I just inherited the Duchy of Prussia? Sweet.
Royal Prussia: But you still have to pass through me in order to get from one of your territories to another, which means you'd better stay on the good side of the Poles. Which may mean the Saxons, when the Elector of Saxony is King of Poland.

1701
Grandpa F1: Being an elector is nice and all, but I just can't wait to be king! After all, the elector of Hanover is set to inherit England in a few years, and Saxony's got Poland, and I've got to keep up with the Joneses.
Holy Roman Emperor: No kings in the Holy Roman Empire on my watch. You have any territory you inherited outside the HRE, like the Hanovers?
F1: Yup, I got East Prussia right here. Is it okay if I'm Elector of Brandenburg and King of Prussia?
Royal Prussia: King of what?
F1: Okay, King "in" Prussia. Everyone down with that?
Prince Eugene of Savoy: No!
HRE: Yes.
Eugene: Boss!
HRE: Sssh. What could go wrong?
F1: *goes to Königsberg, capital of East Prussia, to get crowned King in Prussia*
Everything owned by F1: *is now called the Kingdom of Prussia*

1713
FW: Coronations are expensive.
East Prussia: You want want the title or not?
FW: Fine. I will go to East Prussia, where I'm technically king, and have an HOMAGE CEREMONY, which is much cheaper, and then I'm coming back to Berlin, where I live, and I will continue to act like a king here.
FW: Also, have you noticed that the Kingdom of Prussia looks like this? How the fuck are you supposed to defend that? With no natural borders, the only way to do it is with a really tall army.
Europe: Are you implying if you had a single cohesive territory, you'd be less militaristic?
FW: Well, no. The whole thing just kind of gives me a hard-on. But it's also politically necessary!

1731
Fritz: Fine. If I'm going to be stuck in Küstrin while you force me to learn boring things like whether my ancestors acquired Magdeburg in a game of cards or whatever, instead of useful things like Aristotle's rules of poetics, lemme have a look at this map here.
Fritz: Oh, holy fuck that map. We need to fill in some gaps! See that big gap between Brandenburg and East Prussia. We need that for so many reasons.
Royal Prussia: *stinkeye*
Fritz: Don't you stinkeye me. You think I'm an effeminate poetry-writing peacenik now, just you wait.

1740
Fritz: *goes to Königsberg, capital of East Prussia, to get an homage ceremony recognizing him as King in Prussia*
Algarotti: *rides in the carriage and trades poems about orgasms and bums*
Hans Heinrich: *rides in a different carriage*
Europe: Hmm, lotta military preparations there, Fritz! You thinking about grabbing the rest of Prussia? Juliers and Berg? Silesia? Something else?
Fritz: Can you keep a secret?
Europe: Yes!
Fritz: Well, so can I!
Fritz: *invades Silesia*
Reader: Wait a minute! That doesn't fill in any gaps! I thought you were an expansionist because of your scattered territory.
Fritz: Also because it gives me a hard-on. And Silesia is so much wealthier and at least as strategically important as Polish Prussia.
Ghost of Eugene: THAT. THAT could go wrong!

1742, 1745, 1748
MT: *signs over control of Silesia*
Fritz: I'm Frederick the Great, and I'm King OF Prussia. Deal with it.
Royal Prussia: Still here? Still not yours?
Fritz: THE GREAT HAS SPOKEN.

1763
MT: FINE. You get to keep Silesia. But the rest is mine.
Fritz: I get to keep Silesia? Wow, was that harder than I thought. I'd like to not do that again.
Europe: HARD SAME.

Early 1770s
Trouble: *is brewing*
Europe: *does not want war*
Fritz: Even I don't want war! And I won the last one. By which I mean my map looks the same as it did before the war started.
Heinrich: Interested in changing that? I hear you've been eyeing the rest of Prussia since I was 5 years old.
Fritz: Does it lead to getting involved in a land war in Asia?
Heinrich: Nah, my BFF Catherine says as long as she gets a share of Poland, she's on board with it. We'll have to let Austria get a share, of course.
MT: The poor Poles! What did they ever do to deserve this?
MT: Also, which part is mine?
Fritz: *snark*

1772
First Polish Partition: *takes place*
Fritz to Royal Prussia: Come to papa!
West Prussia: I used to be Royal Prussia, but now I'm part of the Kingdom of Prussia. Old Fritz made me into a province called West Prussia, because I'm west of East Prussia. That last bit is the only non-confusing part of the whole deal.
Kingdom of Prussia: I now look like this.
Hohenzollerns: We no longer have to make nice to the King of Poland to get from one part of our kingdom to the other!
Danzig: Go look carefully at West Prussia on that map. See that little white piece along the Baltic coast that *didn't* make it into the partition? That's me! I'm a major port city, I'm super important, and I used to be part of the Hanseatic League, a commercial trading alliance among economically important cities during the Middle Ages. Twenty-first century readers may know me as Gdansk. I'm one of the cool kids.
Fritz: *scowl* I wanted to get you as part of my deal, but everyone else said noooo.
Danzig: Can't touch this! Ha.

1793
Second Polish Partition: *takes place*
Danzig: I'm part of Prussia now.
Ghost of Fritz: Ha!
Danzig: :-(

1795
Third Polish Partition: *takes place*
Poland: I'm Sir-Not-Appearing-On-This-Map any more.
East Prussia: I'm the white spot on that map that didn't get divvied up, because I already belonged to the Hohenzollerns.
FW2: Technically, Uncle who always said I was a good-for-nothing, have you noticed I acquired more territory than you and your brother put together? Including Danzig?
Ghost of Fritz: THE GREAT HAS SPOKEN.

Coda
Pomerania: This is all blatant Pomeranian erasure!
mildred_of_midgard: Sorry! You're just as confusing with your several parts and several meanings of your name, and the overlap of various Pomeranian regions with various Prussian regions. There's only so much I can cover in one write-up before everyone is totally lost. Maybe next time.

This, btw, is of additional political importance since the inhabitants of Danzig - Gdansk - used to be HRE subjects, Danzig having been a Free City

Is that what Lehndorff and/or the editor says? I was under the impression that although it was a Hanseatic League city, it was a Royal Free City of Poland, not an Imperial Free City, and Wikipedia agrees with my memory. I'm seeing no evidence that it was ever part of the HRE. But I'm open to new evidence.

are less than thrilled that they‘re now Prussians.

In 1776? My memory and every source I've checked tell me that it wasn't acquired by Prussia until the 1790s. (My memory said second or third partition; internet is telling me second, 1793.)

Re: Prussia and the Polish partitions

[selenak]

*applauds*

Splendid Prussian historical-geographical run down!

re: Danzig - what the footnote (to Paul not wanting to talk to any Danzigers because they're not nice to Fritz) said was "Friedrich was unhappy with Danzig not wanting to be part of Prussia", and I, typing and translating during my two hours, didn't look up when Danzig actually came under official Prussian control and just made an assumption. Ditto for Hanse city vs free city of the HRE, I just recalled that it had special city status while typing without looking it up. Hanse city makes much more sense, though.

Pomerania: LOL. cahn, you might or might not recall that Lehndorff in his entry on Fredersdorf marvels that a guy "from the most backward Pomerania" made it to the top. Also, Gustav when having it out with Mom about her calling his heir a bastard threatened to send Ulrike to the Swedish part of Pomerania, because that's a thing, too. Today's Germany has a state called "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern", but most of formerly Prussian Pomerania is in Poland. There's one creepy German song for children which people date either originating the 30 Years War or to the 7 Years War, which goes thusly:

Maikäfer flieg/dein Vater ist im Krieg/ die Mutter ist in Pommerland/Pommerland ist abgebrannt/ Maikäfer flieg

(Maybug fly/ your father is in the war/ your mother is in Pomerania/Pomerania has been burned down/ Maybug fly)

(The first recorded instant of someone writing that down is in 1800, but whether it came into being in the 30 Years War or in the 7 Years War has been debated ever since. Pomerania got scorched in both wars. (And then again in WWII.) I sang that song as a child, too, without knowing where the hell Pomerania was, since even Vorpommern was in East Germany behind the Iron Curtain.

Re: Prussia and the Polish partitions

[mildred_of_midgard]

I, typing and translating during my two hours, didn't look up when Danzig actually came under official Prussian control and just made an assumption.

Aha, that makes sense. I would not have looked it up in my two hours in the library either! But you've surprised me with things like "chocolate: not just a beverage!" before, so I have to ask. Also, I did make a couple chronological mistakes during the initial write-up that I fortunately had time to catch and edit myself before you woke up and caught them. ;)

Maikäfer flieg/dein Vater ist im Krieg/ die Mutter ist in Pommerland/Pommerland ist abgebrannt/ Maikäfer flieg

(Maybug fly/ your father is in the war/ your mother is in Pomerania/Pomerania has been burned down/ Maybug fly)

Oh, wow, that *is* a creepy song. A surprising number of children's songs are, actually.

I sang that song as a child, too, without knowing where the hell Pomerania was, since even Vorpommern was in East Germany behind the Iron Curtain.

Lol!

Re: Prussia and the Polish partitions

[mildred_of_midgard]

By the way, this does mean Trenck was definitely not in Prussian territory when he was captured by Fritz in Danzig. It's also quite possible that he traveled around East Prussia to get to Danzig, by land or by sea. It was still a hell of a risk, coming that close to Fritz's territory, but it's not quite as stupid as actually returning to Prussia.

Oh, ha! I just refreshed myself on the date of Trenck's capture, and it's 1753. Year of Fritz arresting people in free cities outside his territory, I guess! (The other one being Voltaire in Frankfurt, for those who may benefit from the chronology reminder.)

Geneaology-wise, I also spotted that Trenck's mother was a Derschau, and I've now found that he and the guy who interrogated Crown Prince Fritz and generally made him miserable before the interrogation, were first cousins once removed. Interrogator being of an older generation, of course.

Re: Prussia and the Polish partitions

[selenak]

Well spotted! Btw, Wilhelmine mentions Derschau the despised as being "of the Austrian party, and well suited to them" in the 1720s court. I assume FW made him interrogator to have someone he was certain would not be sympathizing with Fritz.

re: Trenck, though: what I'm curious about - how did the Prussians know he'd come to Danzig to be arrested? Someone kept an eye on his mother just in case all those years? Trenck being Trenck, his whereabouts were known due to flamboyant scandals? (If he did get it on with someone at the Russian court in the meantime as claimed.)

I do find it interesting that no one writing in the 1750s of those testimonies I've read mentions Trenck's arrest and subsequent imprisonment sans trial. I don't just mean Lehndorff but the various foreign enovys. You'd think at the very least the Austrians would be interested, whether in a "thank God, now he's someone else's problem" or a "zomg, person who is actually now one of our citizens got arrested on neutral territory!" manner, but: crickets. Now if Voltaire got arrested that same year, it explains some of it, because the Fritz/Voltaire showdown by the very nature of the people involved is going to grab the most of everyone's attention, but it's still interesting that only memoirists writing well after Trenck's own memoirs were published, like Thiébault, bring him up.

Conclusion: as opposed to Voltaire in Frankfurt, or for that matter Glasow three years later when Lehndorff hears not only about the arrest but the accusations/suspicions because everyone gossips about them at Easter, this must have been handled in an absolutely hush-hush manner.

Re: Prussia and the Polish partitions

[mildred_of_midgard]

Well spotted!

Now that we're getting to know all the minor characters, we can figure out how they're all related via those intra-nobility marriages! Even cahn is spotting minor characters from the same family and wanting to know how they're related. ;)

how did the Prussians know he'd come to Danzig to be arrested?

That is an excellent question. Perhaps the Volz sourcebook on Trenck+Fritz that you're going to get from Stabi when it's open (right?) will tell us!

I do find it interesting that no one writing in the 1750s of those testimonies I've read mentions Trenck's arrest and subsequent imprisonment sans trial. I don't just mean Lehndorff but the various foreign enovys.

That's really interesting. Not having read the reports, I hadn't noticed that was missing. Is it possible our Fritz-sympathetic editors like Jessen have just edited those documents out? But you're right that Lehndorff doesn't seem to know, which means it must be less of a scandal than Glasow.

Conclusion: as opposed to Voltaire in Frankfurt... this must have been handled in an absolutely hush-hush manner.

Lol, now I'm trying to imagine handling Voltaire in a hush-hush manner. Even if you managed to lock him up in a place where he couldn't smuggle out polemics about how you are the ABSOLUTE WORST, I feel like the sudden silence in and of itself would be suspicious.

Europe: Hmm, it's been awfully peaceful on the Voltaire front lately. Only foul play could explain this.
Europe: *eyes swivel toward Fritz*
Europe: We're curious about all those visits to Magdeburg you've been making lately. Care to explain?
Fritz: What? Wha-yes, yes, I have lots of troops there. It's very important that I review them at least twice a month. Yes, this is a new practice I'm experimenting with. You say Voltaire's gone missing? I hadn't even noticed, frankly. Why would I pay attention to that SCUM OF THE EARTH?
Fritz: *publishes anonymous pamphlet in hopes people will attribute it to Voltaire*
Fritz: *fools no one*

Re: Prussia and the Polish partitions

[selenak]

It's indeed possible that Trenck-mentioning envoy reports simply haven't made it ito publication. However, the Trenck/Amalie romance was really popular among late 19th and early 20th century novelists, and the debate on how much or little truthful Trenck was raged on, so I would assume if, say, an Austrian report that mentions him did exist, this would have made it into print a long time ago. Especially since the archives in Vienna were far less censored than the ones in Berlin (not just to historians; by the 20th century, novelist Stefan Zweig can look up Joseph's letter to Leopold about their sister's marital sex life or lack of same), and even in the 19th century, Austrian historians would probably have downright enjoyed publishing anything embarassing to the Prussians. Especially since the majority of German historians swallowed the Hohenzollern version of history so completely that when stuff like Arneth documenting that the "MT wrote a dear sister/dear cousin letter" tale was pure Prussian propaganda and not fact happened, it took eons to sink in (with some laudable exceptions).

(We don't have all those Seckendorf reports to Eugene about Junior's marriage plans that destroyed the legend of the evil Catholic plot thanks to Prussian archives, I don't think.)

Lol, now I'm trying to imagine handling Voltaire in a hush-hush manner.

Agreed that this would have been impossible, even if they were no witnesses to the abduction and Voltaire didn't manage any message smuggling, by the very nature of his silence.

(Voltaire: I've been locked up in the Bastille itself and used the opportunity for publicity. You think some second rate Saxon prison is going to shut me up... Luc? Do you?)

Re: Prussia and the Polish partitions

[mildred_of_midgard]

However, the Trenck/Amalie romance was really popular among late 19th and early 20th century novelists, and the debate on how much or little truthful Trenck was raged on

I eagerly await your report on the source book. :D

(Voltaire: I've been locked up in the Bastille itself and used the opportunity for publicity. You think some second rate Saxon prison is going to shut me up... Luc? Do you?)

Luc: I just wanted to put you in a birdcage and come visit you regularly so you could talk to meeeee, and only me, Der Einzige. Is that too much to ask?
Voltaire: At least in the Bastille, I didn't have to listen to your verses!

Re: Prussia and the Polish partitions

[cahn]

you might or might not recall that Lehndorff in his entry on Fredersdorf marvels that a guy "from the most backward Pomerania" made it to the top.

Ohhhhh! I forgot it was Pomerania, but I remember the backward part :)

Man, creepy songs for children are creepy. (I sang somewhat creepy songs too as a kid, but as far as I know they didn't have any historical basis.)

Re: Prussia and the Polish partitions

[cahn]

This is hilarious, but more to the point extremely informative and clear about something which I probably should have asked about ages ago, thank you!! (I am also terrible at geography, unsurprisingly.) This is characterization by geography! :) It was kind of amazing looking at all those gaps in the map and then how they got filled in (but not by Silesia :P )

Prince Eugene of Savoy: No!

Ha!

MT: The poor Poles! What did they ever do to deserve this?
MT: Also, which part is mine?

LOL MT! My problematic fave! :D

Re: Prussia and the Polish partitions

[mildred_of_midgard]

It's so complicated I would have given it to you ages ago if I'd been able to figure out how! First person for the regions was a breakthrough. It also probably helped that by now you have enough context for some of these things to be meaningful.

This is characterization by geography! :)

Hee hee, yes it is. Also characterization *of* geography.

And I learned that Fritz did not do the snark that I thought he did! (Although let's be real, he probably snarked inside his own head, if nowhere else.)