Frederick the Great discussion post 12
Feb. 26th, 2020 09:09 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnEvery time I am amazed and enchanted that this is still going on! Truly DW is the Earthly Paradise!
All the good stuff continues to be archived at![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
rheinsberg :)
All the good stuff continues to be archived at
rheinsberg :)
Volz
Date: 2020-02-27 05:31 pm (UTC)German translation of the Fritz-Wilhelmine correspondence, with bonus letters between Wilhelmine and her parents and one of her sisters. Volume 1, up to 1740, is available online and volume 2 is not, but is at Stabi. I'm not sure how many, if any, Fritz/Wilhelmine letters there are that aren't in Preuss on Trier, but at least they're in German, and like I said, there are some bonus letters. I put volume 1 in the library, but the scan quality is kind of terrible, in that it keeps chopping off the bottom of the page, so Trier might be better.
German translation of the Fritz-AW correspondence, which may have Biche letters, I don't know. Not available online. Stabi.
Sourcebook on Fritz & Trenck to supplement Trenck's memoirs! Not available online. Please to be obtaining. ;) Obviously will not contain the 2008 letter, but who knows what goodies it has.
3-volume bio of Fritz that I've seen cited in various modern bios. Curious if he manages to do better than any of the other 1920s biographers and editors. If we decide we like Volz, I can get this one into the library, but I will need our royal patron's help. I'll let you decide if you think it's worth it, after checking out his other work.
Conversations with Fritz, which looks potentially interesting and is now in the Fritzian library. (Different conversations with Fritz than the Catt+Lucchesini ones!)
Volz is also the guy responsible for all? much? of the political correspondence, which I hadn't noticed.
Not Fritz related, he also apparently put together previously unpublished documents on the Comte de Saint-Germain, who is at least not a boring person!
I obviously can't vouch for any of these, but am curious.
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-02-28 08:14 am (UTC)I'd easy bear all fate throws at me
if only I could save you from this marriage!
But now I accept it with bravery
because your friendship gives me the power to.
But you, my dearest, you are willing
to offer your life to the blind devastation of fate
out of love for my foolish self
whom misfortune is using as a monument.
You sacrificed your peace, your heart and your hand,
as proof for the friendship you feel for me.
Oh, I'll never doubt your loyalty, never!
My life would otherwise be bitter remorse. (*cough* *cough*)
Oh doomed madness! You know, for me,
you are the only happiness on earth!
But will you be happy in this marriage?
(Grumbkow: shows up about a month later with BOUNDARIES! advice.)
Also, there's a letter direclty after their awkward and brief reunion during her wedding in December, which he wrote when back in Küstrin:
Most beloved Sister! When the heriditary prince visited me on Tuesday, I unfortunately could not write a farewell letter to you. But, my dearest liberator, there really was no time? I was very sad to have to leave you so soon after our brief reunion without knowing whether we would see each other again. I very well did notice that you were doubting my love, but I swear to you, it has not lessened. Unfortunately, I was lacking any opportunity to prove this to you. But be assured that I feel no less than you do. How could I, and should I not gratefully recognize how good you were to me after I made my entire family miserable through my foolish action and especially you? You should have despised my foolish unfortunate self as the origin of your pains and instead, you sacrificed yourself in order to allow me to escape this labyrinth. No, my dearest sister, I will never be worth the kindness which you have shown to me! (...)No, incomparable sister, don't do me the insult of doubting me! My heart is yours, yours and the Queen's alone. (...) I worship you and love you a thousand times more than I love myself, but never as much as you deserve, for no one can. Farewell! I am, until my death, utterly and completely yours. (...) P.S. Principessa lies at your feet and kisses the hands of her Principe.
(Remember, they had named their flute and lute Principessa and Principe respectively, and according to Wilhelmine's memoirs Fritz had said "I will never love another princess" and she "Then this (prince) shall be your only rival".)
(Volz: the early letters of the Crown Prince sound like those of a troubadour writing to his lady. This is in the Rokoko style.)
And now we come to the following fascinating characterisation of FS. Looks like Franzl wasn't the only one charmed, and I don't see why Fritz would pretend to be to Wilhelmine, who is living in Bayreuth and thus out of parental control re: the letters. (Given he never pretends to be charmed by EC in those same letters, and instead is still growsing about the impending marriage, it can't be that he still fears his own outgoing mail gets read.)
Berlin, March 15th 1732. (...) The Duke of Lorraine has departed today. He is the most charming prince I ever met. He has so much wit, and a noble, free bearing. We have become very good friends, and when people see us together, they must believe us to be idiots because we can't stop laughing and joking with each other. The Duke shows so much ésprit that it is impossible to ever tire of him. He is a wonderful raconteur, and always high spirited. He is very vivacious and yet knows how to control his vivacity in a way that enable him to charm both more sedate people and those like him and me, the foolish ones. I'll tell you some of his zingers when we meet; they will delight you! (...)
The Duchess as Bevern will leave soon with her daughter. We're spending our time making presents to each other. THe King is very satisfied with his daughter-in-law, and gracious towards me. I have hinted to her she should tell me to reccommend herself to you, but she has left her mind and capacity to talk in Braunschweig.
I'm enclosing a little souvenir which I hope will be useful to you in your current situation. At least you can see from it that I love my dearest Mine still faithfully and and truly, and that one could hack me to pieces before claiming I don't adore you. Farewell. P.S. My regards to your husband. If you love me, send me a ribbon you have worn for fourteen days. Don't forget my best to Sonsine. Lolotte (Charlotte) has grown very pretty, and so has Sophie.
Grumbkow: Oh for God's sake.
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-02-28 01:46 pm (UTC)I agree, Fritz doesn't fork over the cost of an expensive salmon to send to just anyone. :P (I'm still laughing at "Look, you really liked the salmon, right?")
The Duke shows so much ésprit that it is impossible to ever tire of him.
See, I don't think Fritz ever said someone had ésprit when they didn't, and we all know that's the #1 most important thing to him. So yes, the charming was mutual.
Fritz telling Lucchesini decades later he hadn't been impressed back then because FS struck him as avarage right from the start.
Lol. Fritz the great editor of history. :P (I can't talk, I have massively edited anything too embarrassing out of my own personal history.)
Yes, naturally Fritz rhymes in his Küstrin letters as well.
Of course he does! We should have guessed something was missing. :P
If you love me, send me a ribbon you have worn for fourteen days.
I remember you telling us about this one! And yes, my first thought was a medieval knight (or troubadour works too) to his lady.
Grumbkow, leave them alone! FW, leave them alone! All they've got is each other. THANKS TO YOU, FW. (And SD.)
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-02-28 05:44 pm (UTC)Heinrich, being locked out from Fritz' larder after the first successful raid: No kidding!
Heinrich: *avenges himself by writing to Mom and telling her to send Ferdinand from Berlin as well, Fritz would gladly babysit him, too*
Ferdinand: *arrives with self made bow and arrow and promptly manages to hit one of Fritz' dogs (not dangerously, it's a self made arrow, but still)*
Dog: *whines indignantly*
Fritz: You are the vilest creature our parents ever produced!
Ferdinand: *not up for this, has trembling lips and teary eyes+
Heinrich *definitely up for this*: No, that's you!
Fritz: *switches tactics and puts two freshly grown fruits into both their mouths* Now will you two shut up and leave me read in peace?
Ferdinand: *munches*
Heinrich: *munches but simultanously moves towards the latest letter from Voltaire*
Fredersdorf: To be continued!
So yes, the charming was mutual. (...). Fritz the great editor of history.
I suspect he was retrospectively embarassed to have actually liked a) his arch nemesis' nearest and dearest, and b) someone who by his own (and his century's) definition of manliness was a complete failure as a man and prince, yet c) somehow for all that for the most part leading a happy life as the nominal first and de facto second highest ranking person of their world, with a spouse who loved him and children who did as well.
I remember you telling us about this one! And yes, my first thought was a medieval knight (or troubadour works too) to his lady.
I had been familiar with the later part of the letter (about EC and the ribbon request), but not with the earlier part about FS. Presumably the audio version thought no one would know or care who the Duke of Lorraine was.
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-02-29 12:54 am (UTC)Heinrich is a plotter from an early age! I love the throwback to Ferdinand's bad aim. And poor doggy!
Ferdinand: *not up for this, has trembling lips and teary eyes
Chronology note for
Heinrich *definitely up for this*: No, that's you!
Heinrich will always be up for this! In fact, he'll miss it twelve years after it's gone, much to his own surprise.
Fredersdorf: To be continued!
Lol, is this yet another excerpt from his very secret diary? That's awesome.
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-02-29 11:31 am (UTC)Well, given his lack of brother-toppling conspiracies, his reputation as a schemer has to come from somewhere!
(When I looked up Paul and saw the manner of his death, which, yikes, even for royal assassinatons, that was extra, with son Alexander nearby, and considering Cousin Philppe voted for Louis XVI. beheading in the National Assembly, I was reminded again this really was a century where relations taking that step to actual conspiracy and murder was not confined to the realm of fiction.
Chronology note for [personal profile] cahn: he's just about to have his sixth birthday in a a couple weeks. Yeah, I bet his handmade arrow was non-lethal.
Ferdinand's age during that Mantteufel by way of Seckendorf Jr. conversation is why I was stumped for a while to come up with an explanation causing Fritz to predict he'll be the vilest spawn FW ever sired once he's grown up. But him inadvertently hitting a dog would totally do it!
If I ever discover the semblance of a plot thread to hang this up on, I might make something of this crack fic and call it "Adventures in Babysitting", Rokoko style.
Also, reading Lucchesini and Pangels in short order was a neat illustration of the following double standard:
Fritz, years after Voltaire's death:
Person: So, Voltaire...
Fritz: The worst! The absolute worst! I'm not budging from this. Hand me my Voltaire volume, Lucchesini.
Posteriy: Aw. Poor Fritz. How terribly disillusioned must he have been. Or, as Richter of Fredersdorf letters fame puts it, when summing up Fritz/Voltaire: "Laßt uns den König eine Weile auf seinem Leidensweg begleiten." ("Let us join the king for a while on his path of suffering.")
(Also Fritz: trashtalks Pompadour decades after she's died, complete with revisionings of how she wanted money and titles from him in order to stop the war which he refused to give. Posterity: Well, she did greatly contribute to France not budging from the new Austrian alliance, and also, Fritz just tells it like it is, a maitresse en titre is a whore regardless of glamour.)
Heinrich, yeas after Fritz' death:
Person: So, your brother, der einzige, the genius, the best, right?
Heinrich: The worst. The absolute worst. I'm not budging from this. Now excuse me while I move some of my stuff to Wusterhausen and pretend the last twelve Fritzless years haven't happened.
Person and posterity: OMG. How low can you go, hating on the poor man even after death! Such hatred! How twisted, how warped! That obelisk is "the revolting portrait of a twisted personality" (tm early 20th century US biographer).
Mind you, this is not true for the more recent stuff, but as Pangels, published in the 70s ilustrates, "more recent" really is the last 20 years or so. (Ziebura's Heinrich biography was published in 1999. BTW, think that was the first one to use the Marwitz letters. At least I haven't found any earlier examples so far. It may just be no one before Ziebura bothered to check out the unplublished by Preuss Fritz-Heinrich correspondance in the state archive, but even so, Lehndorff's diaries were published from 1907 onwards, and they already contain the tale.
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-02-29 01:58 pm (UTC)Hee! Babysitting five-year-olds is not for the faint of heart!
If I ever discover the semblance of a plot thread to hang this up on, I might make something of this crack fic and call it "Adventures in Babysitting", Rokoko style.
Yes! Who needs a plot, anyway? Also, I totally want to see him babysit Ulrike and Amalie and conclude that Amalie is the nice one (because she shares his passion for music) and music-hating Ulrike is a troublemaker you don't want as your queen, because she broke the cembalo so Amalie couldn't bang on it any more. :P
Fritz: The worst! The absolute worst! I'm not budging from this. Hand me my Voltaire volume, Lucchesini.
Heinrich: The worst. The absolute worst. I'm not budging from this. Now excuse me while I move some of my stuff to Wusterhausen and pretend the last twelve Fritzless years haven't happened.
Lol, and don't forget being inspired to reread the Fritzian correspondence in the throes of the dysfunctional nostalgia inspired by Wilhelmine's memoirs!
I love the other-self parallels here. THESE TWO.
Person and posterity: OMG. How low can you go, hating on the poor man even after death! Such hatred! How twisted, how warped! That obelisk is "the revolting portrait of a twisted personality"
There is a lot of Fritzian double standards. I enjoyed the "temerity" of asking Fritz to pay off your debts. FRITZ! Master collector of sugar daddies for the last twelve or so years! Debts sky high!
as Pangels, published in the 70s ilustrates, "more recent" really is the last 20 years or so.
MacDonogh, following Pangels closely: 1999!
It may just be no one before Ziebura bothered to check out the unplublished by Preuss Fritz-Heinrich correspondance in the state archive, but even so, Lehndorff's diaries were published from 1907 onwards, and they already contain the tale.
Selective reading has definitely been a thing. I am deeply grateful to have had you to share the latest German-language research with us. Who knows what I would still be believing if not for you!
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-03-01 06:05 am (UTC)This is perfect. Btw, when I went through the original Italian Lucchesini I thought I spotted Fritz telling Lu that he should have married Ulrike to Peter (III) and Catherine to the Swedes, but when I checked the relevant German passage, alas that's not what he was saying, he just says that Peter wanted to marry Urike. (Which isn't even true, as the footnote diligently tells us; what this is based on was that the Holsteins were offering for Amalie for a while, but Fritz: "I don't want to throw my sisters at people." (Unless I get something out of it.) Apparantly at this point little Peter didn't rate a daughter of the House of Brandenburg and Anhalt Sophie was good enough for him.
Volz "Gespräche mit Friedrich dem Großen" does include the description of the teenage Catherine and Fritz encounter by Catherine herself. It says it's from her memoirs. But the memoirs that are up at Gutenberg start with her arrival in Russia. Now I know Catherine, like Wilhelmine, never finished her memoirs, and also son Paul got the manuscript into his hands after her death so who knows what he censored, but it looks like she's another case of Thiébault and Trenck where some editor cuts out passages of later editions. If so: why the Fritz encounter`?! That's a great story!
Meanwhile, in Volz, one of the later French visitors talks with Fritz about Catherine, in a conversation that starts with Voltaire.
Fritz: Miraculously does not say "The worst!", but instead opens with: Total genius of the ages, Voltaire.
French visitor: Gotta admit, am glad to hear you say that. He'd have deserved to lose your favour, of course, but he's my intellectual hero and our national treasure even after his death, so I'm glad you're still keen on him.
Fritz: Always will be. I'm a calm and generous mind and totally forgave him for the many wrongs he did me. Even when he started to cheat on me with CATHERINE, whom he never said a single mean thing about just because she always kept praising him.
French visitor: Speaking of Catherine: that woman does have some genius, what with ruling a nation of cuththroats with her throat uncut and her on top of things for decades now after starting out as a foreign import loathed by her husband. Something of a problematic start, though, what with the, err, uncertain causes of death of the husband.
Fritz: That guy was a let down, he let himself be dethroned like a child. As for Catherine, she doesn't deserve either blame or credit for getting into power. She was a helpless uncertain woman totally dominated by the Orlovs at that point who had no idea what was going on. They were the ones orchestrating the coup and killing Peter. She didn't realise until after the fact, and then she had no choice but to promote the Orlovs if she didn't want to be killed as well.
French Visitor: Phew. Now I can admire her without rooting for a husband murderess.
Fritz: I don't think you've gotten my point, which is that I'm cooler than Catherine. Who is such a flighty woman that ONE VISIT by Joseph was enough for her to ally with him as well. Prussia/Russia was supposed to be exclusive, dammit!
Maybe I should have sent Heinrich a third time.Re: Volz
Date: 2020-03-01 02:32 pm (UTC)Oh, Fritz. Never stop making me laugh.
it looks like she's another case of Thiébault and Trenck where some editor cuts out passages of later editions. If so: why the Fritz encounter`?! That's a great story!
Good news: I can get a 2-volume German translation that has the encounter into the library, I'll just need our royal patron's help.
French Visitor: Phew. Now I can admire her without rooting for a husband murderess.
Fritz: I don't think you've gotten my point, which is that I'm cooler than Catherine.
Hahahaha. *pats Fritz on the head*
Prussia/Russia was supposed to be exclusive, dammit!
I guess she didn't get the "Der einzige" memo. :P
This is such a great encounter. Who's the French visitor and what's Volz's source?
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-03-01 05:36 pm (UTC)Re: Volz
Date: 2020-03-01 05:39 pm (UTC)Volz is good with his footnotes.
Go Volz! Volz was a good find.
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-03-02 05:43 pm (UTC)HAHAHAHAHA um, ok Fritz!
Fritz: I don't think you've gotten my point, which is that I'm cooler than Catherine.
FRIIIITZ! *dies laughing*
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-03-02 05:40 pm (UTC)Heinrich: The worst. The absolute worst. I'm not budging from this. Now excuse me while I move some of my stuff to Wusterhausen and pretend the last twelve Fritzless years haven't happened.
Awwww, these two, they're so dysfunctional in all the same ways <3
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-03-02 05:38 pm (UTC)Re: Volz
Date: 2020-03-02 05:37 pm (UTC)My life would otherwise be bitter remorse. (*cough* *cough*)
Man, I am the most unironic reader in the world, which is my other problem with ingesting history (and biographers, I suppose). I was reading this and thinking, awwww, it's really sweet, and -- why is selenak coughing? -- OH. YEAH. THAT. (And it's not like I'll ever forget about That Lunch, my fave!)
(Grumbkow: shows up about a month later with BOUNDARIES! advice.)
If you love me, send me a ribbon you have worn for fourteen days. (...)
Grumbkow: Oh for God's sake.
HAHAHAHA omg I mean I know this is all very tragic but Grumbkow, I have a lot of sympathy for your position.
The Duke shows so much ésprit that it is impossible to ever tire of him. He is a wonderful raconteur, and always high spirited. He is very vivacious and yet knows how to control his vivacity in a way that enable him to charm both more sedate people and those like him and me, the foolish ones. I'll tell you some of his zingers when we meet; they will delight you!
This is totally fascinating! Also kind of hilarious to read right after reading MT's warnings to Joseph not to be taken in by ésprit Not Like Other People She Might Know :) I wonder if she and Franzl had talks about Fritz's reaction to him :D
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-03-05 07:24 pm (UTC)Well, Franzl had been charmed as well, and undoubtedly he told her right up to her own ascension to the throne they'd have a good ally in this likeable Crown Prince of Prussia. Who even send them a tasty wedding present, don't forget! No matter how much his father complained about not getting an invite.
Post- "Hi, how about you and your girl give me Silesia and I protect you selflessly from the French with my army!" letter that arrived once MT's father had died, I doubt they discussed that youthful meeting again.
Re: Volz
Date: 2020-02-28 01:48 pm (UTC)Re: Volz
Date: 2020-02-28 05:53 pm (UTC)Re: Volz
Date: 2020-02-28 06:04 pm (UTC)Re: Volz
Date: 2020-03-02 05:43 pm (UTC)