cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 11

In our last installment, our heroes found that Henri de Catt's memoirs, a major source for current biographers of Frederick the Great, are not to be trusted!!

rheinsberg

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From:

selenak

Borcke: how are they related to the ultimately fired for pacifism FW2 educator?

I thought Orzelska had taught him love and poetry? Or did he write two quotes like this to Voltaire? Or am I misremembering?

I've seen the very quote in relation to Orzelska, BUT bear in mind I've seen it in a SPIEGEl (= German weekly magazine) article on the history of Dresden, subsection "Old Fritz got deflowered there and later had the place ramsacked, twice, when invading". When reading the Pleschinski translation of the correspondance, I was in a hurry and skipped alot of the early correspondance because all that mutual admiration was indeed tiring, so I probably missed out which lady got named, Wreech or Orzelska.

Huh, I didn't realize she had spelled this out, but admittedly I've only selectively read volume 2 of her memoirs, and haven't read their correspondence. At any rate, Asprey supports [personal profile] selenak's reconstruction of events here!

I don't recall this mentioned in the memoirs. Bear in mind the edition I've been using is a German one, not either of the ones you've been using, and thus might have its very own cuts. Still, I'm glad that she found out!

So remember when one of Fritz's "brothers" visited him with two companions and they were all more interested in food than learning, leading Fritz to complain to Suhm that he was forced to entertain when would rather be reading? Asprey claims this was...Henry! Who was all of 10 years old.

LOL. But Mildred, this is the first time I can believe it, for isn't it the classic situation of older sibling forced to babsysit younger sibling when he'd rather be doing something else? Also, if Heinrich was ten, it was the very same year Fritz told Manteuffel he (and Ferdinand) have bad characters already, as opposed to AW who is still salvagable. Immediately, my mind constructs the following scenario:

SD: Fritz, you've got to babysit your younger brother for a while. He starts to have ideas, and I'm not up to a replay of your interaction with your father.

Fritz: *with clenched teeth* Whatever you say, Mom.

Heinrich, age 10: *arrives from Berlin where he has only been getting the FW approved meals, and immediately pounces on the much better equipped Frederician larder, complete with consuming the very delicious tart Fritz had had his eyes on*

Fritz: You little beast. Not much into sharing, are we?

Heinrich: Not with you. Hey, what's this?

Fritz: My Suhm-translated Wolff, which - OMG! Did you just make chocolate fingerprints on my Suhm and Voltaire letters? Get away from my library, you savage!

Heinrich: I thought you were cool. Wilhelm said you were. But you're really really not.

Fritz: Why don't you go in the park and leave me alone to my books, then?

Heinrich *folds arms*: Because you want me to. *sits down on a chair in Fritz study which happens to have Fritz' flute lying on it. A sound of splintering wood can be heard (from the case, not the flute itself)*

Fritz: OUT! *grabs Heinrich to pull him up, gets kicked into the shins*

Mantteuffel: *arrives* Your royal highness! How nice to see you again!

Heinrich: *tears himself away from Fritz and, assuming the greeting was for him, marches toewards Mantteufel, saying in faultless French, charmingly* Thank you, Monsieur. It's lovely to see you again, too. Why don't you join me? My brother has just suggested a stroll in the park for me, since he's far too busy with his books.

Mantteuffel: *amused* What a charming young man. Yes, your royal highness, let's do that.

Fritz: *writes seething letter*

Fritz, later, when Mantteufel shows up again: THAT KID HAS A TERRIBLE CHARACTER.

Edited Date: 2020-02-26 11:56 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Borcke: how are they related to the ultimately fired for pacifism FW2 educator?

I've been wondering the same myself since I first saw this Borcke guy in Lavisse. Since you ask, I'll take this opportunity to do some genealogy research.

*some time later*

3rd cousin! And actually not through the male line, or not exclusively: twice in Fritz's BFF's family a female von Borcke married a male von Borcke, and it's through two of the female von Borckes that BFF is related to FW2 educator. Behold:

FW2 educator Heinrich Adrian von Borcke is the son of Adrian von Borcke, the son of Andreas von Borcke, the son of Adrian von Borcke, the son of Andreas von Borcke.

Fritz BFF Friedrich Ludwig Felix von Borcke is the son of Georg von Borcke, the son of Martha von Borcke, the daughter of Eva von Borcke, the daughter of Andreas von Borcke.

Due to the inbreeding, they are probably related numerous other ways, but I haven't looked up how closely related the Borcke-Borcke spouses might be.

ETA: Also, "(older brother Borcke is notable enough to get his own Wikipedia page, possible boyfriend Borcke is not)" is total memory fail on my part. Not only does the less famous one have a Wikipedia page, my browser history shows I clicked on it, and my memory now remembers reading it, now that I'm looking at it again. It just doesn't have a great deal of information. He seems to have gotten mentally ill (unspecified) in the late 1740s, and died unmarried in 1751.

Still, I'm glad that she found out!

I just hope he's right about that!

arrives from Berlin where he has only been getting the FW approved meals, and immediately pounces on the much better equipped Frederician larder

OMG, you're right. That's exactly why the brother pounced on the food.

Fritz, it's a bit rich of you to complain about how your brother is more interested in enriching his stomach than his mind when you yourself are in debt to all of Europe for stocking your larder the moment you got away from Dad, and will continue having disordered eating for the rest of your life. Yes, now that you have your own household and sugar daddies all over the content, you can stop thinking about food long enough to read books all day--Maslow's hierarchy of needs, anyone?--but put you back on the FW2 diet and see how long you last. I've SEEN descriptions of that larder and also of your debts. Yes, some of the debts are for books. NOT ALL. :P

From one oldest sibling bookworm to another (almost) oldest sibling bookworm, though, I'm sorry they made you babysit when you'd rather be reading. I know how that goes. (Heinrich, I'm sorry about your babysitter. I hope you enjoyed the tart.)

Fritz: My Suhm-translated Wolff, which - OMG! Did you just make chocolate fingerprints on my Suhm and Voltaire letters? Get away from my library, you savage!

Fritz, later, when Mantteufel shows up again: THAT KID HAS A TERRIBLE CHARACTER.

HAHAHA. It 100% happened like this, absolutely.

(Still snickering over the chocolate fingerprints. You,

selenak, are a dysfunctional sibling-writing genius.)

Edited Date: 2020-02-26 01:44 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

I haven't looked up how closely related the Borcke-Borcke spouses might be

That's the kind of sentence one only gets in this salon. :)

OMG, you're right. That's exactly why the brother pounced on the food.

The joy of crack fic aside, that did seem the logical explanation for me. It's not like FW changed his ideas about how to feed his kids for the younger siblings.

(Still snickering over the chocolate fingerprints. You, selenak, are a dysfunctional sibling-writing genius.

Well, someone has to be. You should have seen me go through the AO3 archive when our discussions had rekindled my interest and goinng "woe, woe, where are my dysfunctional Hohenzollern sibling relationships? Why aren't there any siblings? Ah, at last, some Wilhelmine, but she's way too functional, and where is my Heinrich? Why no AW? Why aren't there any siblings anywhere?"

From:

mildred_of_midgard

That's the kind of sentence one only gets in this salon. :)

Sadly, my own family tree has this kind of nonsense too. A couple centuries ago, fortunately for me and my (non-Habsburg) jaw. ;) In my case, I know exactly how closely related the Brink-Brink (I think I'm remembering the surname correctly) spouses were: their fathers were twins (we hope fraternal, but could easily be identical), and their mothers were first cousins.

that did seem the logical explanation for me. It's not like FW changed his ideas about how to feed his kids for the younger siblings.

That is absolutely the logical explanation, and all kudos to you for realizing it.

where is my Heinrich? Why no AW? Why aren't there any siblings anywhere?"

Aww, that's sad, and makes me appreciate even my boyfriend fics even more! (Of course, now that I'm discovering more obscure boyfriends...)

Ah, at last, some Wilhelmine, but she's way too functional

*nod* I remember that was your complaint about the mob boss modern AU. Well, props to you and your sibling-writing, both on AO3 and here for our private enjoyment. :D

From:

cahn

woe, woe, where are my dysfunctional Hohenzollern sibling relationships? Why aren't there any siblings?

I'm SO HAPPY that you wrote us dysfunctional Hohenzollern siblings! <3333333 *cuddles "Promises to Keep"*

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Typos galore and too late to edit:

sugar daddies all over the content

That should be "continent".

but put you back on the FW2 diet

I have no idea how you got in there, FW2, but apologies for the extraneous digit! My fingers have had a mind of their own when it comes to digits today, as cahn could tell you.

From:

cahn

LOL! I was wondering about the Borckes too (what have you guys done to me, I actually was wondering how two COMPLETELY MINOR characters are related) and I might have realized that der einzige detective would be on the case!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

what have you guys done to me, I actually was wondering how two COMPLETELY MINOR characters are related

Hee! You are one of us now. :D You laugh at chronological jokes and recognize minor characters from the same family. And you wrote the BEST Fredersdorf diary excerpt! (I would still kill for any other excerpts, should you be so inspired.)

I might have realized that der einzige detective would be on the case!

:)

The detective had been wondering about the Borckes, but hadn't bothered to look it up until someone else expressed interest. The magical alchemy of the Fritzian salon!

From:

gambitten

I thought Orzelska had taught him love and poetry? Or did he write two quotes like this to Voltaire? Or am I misremembering?

When reading the Pleschinski translation of the correspondance, I was in a hurry and skipped alot of the early correspondance because all that mutual admiration was indeed tiring, so I probably missed out which lady got named, Wreech or Orzelska.

So, to resolve the whole confusion about who Friedrich was referring to in his letter to Voltaire about the one who taught him "love and poetry":

Friedrich never names either Orzelska or Wreech - he only refers ambiguously to "a kind person". (This ambiguity is mentioned in Blanning.) Any identity ascribed to this individual is speculation on behalf of the biographer/historian in question - Preuss identified this "kind person" as Wreech, and Caryle says he had a child by her. Other historians identify this "kind person" as Orzelska, largely due to Wilhelmine's memoirs. There really isn't any evidence for either beyond "he seemed interested in this girl when he was young".

Here is the relevant excerpt from the letter, written to Voltaire on the 16th of August 1737:

A kind person inspired me in the flower of my young years two passions at the same time. You can see that one was love, the other was poetry. This little Miracle of Nature with all possible graces had taste and delicacy, she [elle] wanted to communicate them to me. In love I was successful enough, and ill enough in poetry. Since that time I have been quite often in love,
and always a poet.

Mildred may be getting mixed up with a different letter that Friedrich wrote to Voltaire where he mentions Polish Countess Crazinska...? Written on the 20th of February 1767:

There is a Polish countess here; her name is Crazinska, who is a kind of phenomenon. This woman has a decided love for letters; she learned Latin, Greek, French, Italian and English; she has read and understands all the classic authors of each language. The soul of a Benedictine resides in her body; with that, she has a lot of wit, and only has against her the difficulty of expressing herself in French, a language whose use is not yet as familiar to her as intelligence. With such a recommendation, you will judge whether she has been well received. She has a bit of a conversation, a connection in ideas, and none of the frivolities of her sex and what is surprising is that she formed herself, without any help. She has been spending three winters in Berlin with people of letters,

I preach her example to all our women, who would have a much easier way than this Pole to train; but they do not know the happiness of those who cultivate letters; and because this pleasure is not lively, they do not recognize it as such.

Aside from that, no mention of any Polish countesses to Voltaire.

I have more to say about Asprey, and things that jumped out to me when I read his biography, but I don't have time at the moment haha. I'll limit myself to this topic until later.

Edited Date: 2020-02-26 02:03 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Friedrich never names either Orzelska or Wreech - he only refers ambiguously to "a kind person".

Ah, thank you! (Had missed that in my Blanning reread, somehow. Or at least I assume it's in the part I've already reread.)

Mildred may be getting mixed up with a different letter that Friedrich wrote to Voltaire where he mentions Polish Countess Crazinska...? Written on the 20th of February 1767:

I had seen at least part of this quote, I think, but I wasn't confusing it: I was remembering

selenak remembering that Spiegel article, which positively identifies it as Orzelska.

Well, then! Thank goodness for our latest salon member. :)

I look forward to whatever you have to say about Asprey! I've only read the first bit, plus a page here and there as chronic pain permitted before I digitized it. (I haven't been able to read physical books for almost 4 years now, am now giving up and digitizing my library as of a couple days ago.)

From:

selenak

There really isn't any evidence for either beyond "he seemed interested in this girl when he was young".

Thank you for tracking this down! Okay, that leaves it really open for a variety of candidates, including poor Doris Ritter, but since Orzelska preceedes Wreech and Ritter (and, err, Katte and Keith), I'm still tempted to go with her, as Fritz already knew poetry when knowing all the others. ;)

Re: Polish countess - despite the name, Orzelska wasn't really one. I mean, her father gave her the title, but she was raised in Paris before her half-brother brought her to the Saxon court, so if anything, she was French.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Thank you for tracking this down!

Indeed! I can see I shall have to share the title of Detective. :D

Okay, that leaves it really open for a variety of candidates, including poor Doris Ritter, but since Orzelska preceedes Wreech and Ritter

I did think of Ritter, but yes, Orzelska was first chronologically, so I think it's most likely her.

(and, err, Katte and Keith)

Hahaha. Unlikely to be Keith, but if you genderswap, that all describes Katte pretty well. :P

From:

mildred_of_midgard

LOL. But Mildred, this is the first time I can believe it, for isn't it the classic situation of older sibling forced to babsysit younger sibling when he'd rather be doing something else?

Just to clarify what I meant in the original post, it's perfectly *plausible* that it was Heinrich. I'm just skeptical about Asprey's unsourced claim that he knows it *was*. And if it was Heinrich, and he was 10, Fritz is being a bit unreasonable in expecting him to care more about philosophy than food. That's all I meant. (And I mean it even more now that you've pointed out that the 10-yo is still living on the FW Diet back home!)

From:

cahn

AHAHAHA. My faves! :D

Also, I find it hilarious that you included the detail of Heinrich kicking Fritz in the shins, as I was expecting it from the moment I started reading :D