Frederick the Great discussion post 11

[cahn]

In our last installment, our heroes found that Henri de Catt's memoirs, a major source for current biographers of Frederick the Great, are not to be trusted!!

rheinsberg

Comments

Speaking of marriage...

[selenak]

Given the examples of marriage Fritz was familiar with, it's not surprising that the one of MT and Franz Stephan baffled him. More from Jessen. As with Valory's letter about Fritz, bits and pieces from the following letter were already familiar to me, just not this amount. The letter is written by Louis-Marie de Fouquet, Comte de Gisors, who was the nephew of the Marshal Belle-Isle (France's main military man during the Austrian War of succession) and in September 1754 attended first an Austrian manoeuvre (where MT and FS had been present) and then a Prussian manoeuvre.

As soon as Friedrich saw me, he pulled me aside and and bombarded me with questions about Maria Theresia (...) Above all, the King wanted to know how the Empress acted towards the troops. "Does she flatter them? Does she talk to the officers?"

I replied that I had seen her act graciously towards everyone, but without spotting those subtle differences who distinguish the one or encourage the competitive rivalry in the other. However, I added that I had never watched her talk to subaltern officers.

"And the Emperor?"

"Your Majesty, he is very polite and wears his uniform when in the camp. Basically, it seemed to me as if what happened during manouevres did not touch him deeply. He noticed the mistakes correctly, and joked without reproving them, and instead lead Field Marshal Browne act."

"Doesn't one want to say", Friedrich exclaimed, "that the woman has dressed up as a man and the man as a woman? At least the Emperor shows the behavior of a good honest househusband leaving all to his wife."

I looked down and returned that I had noticed that the Empress showed great consideration to the Emperor. (...)

"She must be a strange woman", the King remarked, "much more masculine than feminine. Does she come across as being very busy?"

"Your Majesty, she works from morning to late in the night, and given her strong willpower, she would accomplish very great deeds if she got supported by her ministers in the same way. Her behaviour in the last war proves her courage and her strength of character. Something I especially observed with her was the exquisite courtesy she showed towards everyone. She seemed to use all the advantages of her sex to charm those who come to her court. It is amazing how her face grows more beautiful when she talks, and in which degree she possesses the gift of talking graciously to people even if she feels very differently towards them."

As opposed to, you know, certain other monarchs the good Comte could think of. Fritz being Fritz, he made the "MT is totally the man in that relationship!" quip re: the MT/FS marriage to a lot of people. Unsurprisingly, FS heard about it, too. And had fun with Ambassador Podewils on August 31st, 1748:

(Franzl) believes to know your majesty's character: you had a very energetic mind, and one shouldn't give you opportunity to catch fire. He also knows that your Majesty has said of him that he was a good man without any power and thus of no earthly use. I replied with urgency that one had given him wrong information. (...) He replied that he wasn't particularly gullilble, but that he had the observations your majesty had made about him from a good source; he still assured me that he wasn't insulted in the least; he would keep exactly the same friendship for your majesty your majesty showed him and would always have the sincere wish to contribute to the harmony between the Empress-Queen and your majesty.

Make of that what you will, Fritz.

Re: Speaking of marriage...

[mildred_of_midgard]

Good line, Franzl! (He must be used to this by now, tbh.) MT, I'm glad you got a chill husband and you got to marry for love. I'm glad someone did!

Does anyone else not envy these ambassadors, though, seriously?

Re: Speaking of marriage...

[selenak]

Mitchell: No, Lord Bute did not say "His majesty's government isn't there to endlessly finance the King's of Prussia's wars", he just sort of hinted that maybe, in the light of the glorious new developments in Russia, some slight reduction of subsidies might be possible.

Podewils: No, King Friedrich totally did not call you a henpecked husband, adding a man without power has no purpose on this earth. That's all slander. Just - look, you really liked the salmon, right?

Valory: No, it's totally untrue the King called you the Margrave of Brandenburg and handed over all his correspondance with you to Madame de Pompadour. Also, the next time you're pinching my reader, be as good as to leave me out of the porn you're writing about him.

Seckendorff: In MY day, we didn't bother with denials. We faked smoking and getting drunk with the King instead and smuggled our books into Wusterhausen by using bible covers. And if we got accused of trying to poison the King or Queen, we just shrugged and ordered some more tall fellows from Wallachia. Young people these days...

Re: Speaking of marriage...

[mildred_of_midgard]

Podewils: No, King Friedrich totally did not call you a henpecked husband, adding a man without power has no purpose on this earth. That's all slander. Just - look, you really liked the salmon, right?

Oh, man, I'd forgotten what Fritz said about his own upcoming marriage, in 1732.

I shall be the master in my own house and my wife will have nothing to say in the matter, for women should have no role in government or in anything else either! I believe that a man who allows himself to be governed by women is the greatest poltroon in the world and unworthy to bear the honorable name of man.

I hope you enjoyed the salmon while it lasted, Franzl.

Just - look, you really liked the salmon, right?

Laughed SO hard.

Also, the next time you're pinching my reader, be as good as to leave me out of the porn you're writing about him.

And again!

Seckendorff: In MY day, we didn't bother with denials. We faked smoking

Hahaha. cahn, did we tell you about the part where Seckendorff would attend FW's tobacco parliament and put his pipe between his lips and puff on it with every evidence of enjoyment, but he was really just faking smoking? (And breathing a lot of secondhand smoke in the bargain?) And we know about the book smuggling (at least from an unreliable source citing an unreliable source), and he actually did drink as much as he needed to, and apparently had a good head for it, but a *lot* of hangovers (if my sources can be trusted, sometimes his reports to Vienna would recount a long night and end with "I'm not up to writing more right now").

Seriously, this is why, when we were speculating about who tops and who bottoms, we concluded that Seckendorff would do whatever it took to advance the cause of Seckendorff.

Hmm, MacDonogh tells me Pöllnitz and the Alte Dessauer also did not enjoy smoking. The latter surprises me. I might have to look this up and see if his source actually says what he says it says.

Anyway, it's a rough life being an ambassador! Whether you're Prussian, British, French, or Austrian. And between Rothenburg desperately seeking his recall for years, and Suhm running away (with his family! according to one source) when FW threatened to hang him over those tall fellows...

Man. Hats off to you and all your underappreciated work, guys! Thanks for all the reports. You're fascinating in peace time and war time.

Re: Speaking of marriage...

[cahn]

Noooooo, you didn't, lol!

But totally agree with it being rough to be an ambassador!

Re: Speaking of marriage...

[mildred_of_midgard]

I didn't think we had, so I thought now was a good time to mention it!

Re: Speaking of marriage...

[cahn]

OMG this is GREAT, ohh these poor ambassadors!

in the light of the glorious new developments in Russia, some slight reduction of subsidies might be possible.

HAHAHAHAHA diplomacy, that is to say, "His majesty's government isn't there to endlessly finance the King of Prussia's wars," amirite?

look, you really liked the salmon, right?

Heeee, I laughed really hard :D

And if we got accused of trying to poison the King or Queen, we just shrugged and ordered some more tall fellows from Wallachia.

*chokes* I'd almost forgotten about that incident in Wilhelmine's memoirs! Ah, indeed, those were the days. :P

Re: Speaking of marriage...

[cahn]

he would keep exactly the same friendship for your majesty your majesty showed him

LOLOLOLOL BURN, Franzl! :D MT/FS OTP!!!!!

"Doesn't one want to say", Friedrich exclaimed, "that the woman has dressed up as a man and the man as a woman? At least the Emperor shows the behavior of a good honest househusband leaving all to his wife."

omg Fouquet, he's doing so well considering. Fritz, though! Hee.

"and in which degree she possesses the gift of talking graciously to people even if she feels very differently towards them."

As opposed to, you know, certain other monarchs the good Comte could think of.

HA. Yeeeeah.

Re: Speaking of marriage...

[mildred_of_midgard]

Speaking of marriage! The reason I tracked down this book (well, the reason I bought it on my current budget was that it looked like it was full of ambassador report goodies, but the reason I wanted it in the first place), is that it's the citation in a bio for "Fritz didn't want to sleep with EC on his wedding night, FW had to bully him into it, Fritz was seen walking in the valley an hour later." That was supposedly a report from Seckendorff back to Vienna after the wedding that's quoted in Jessen. Can you confirm or deny?

Re: Speaking of marriage...

[selenak]

Actually, what Seckendorff is writing to Eugene is that all the satiric pieces launched by London and Hannover - „Allesamt unwahr“ - i.e. „all untruthful“ - , are CLAIMING that FW had to bully Fritz into sleeping with EC and that he was seen walking in public through the Salztal an hour later. Seckendorff further reports that this makes FW even more pissed off at the Hannover cousins than usual and that to this hour, he hasn‘t written an official notification (i.e. a „dear bro in law, my son got married“ to them. Since Seckendorff has no problem informing Eugene whenever Fritz does pull stunts like this, and was present at the wedding, I‘m taking him at his word that it was untruthful satire. All on page 57 of the first Jessen volume.

Let me guess: Blanning‘s bad German strikes again, and he can‘t read the conditionalis or disclaimers? (The construction of the sentence is „it is claimed by satiric pieces, all untruthful, that“ etc.

Re: Speaking of marriage...

[mildred_of_midgard]

Thank you for clarifying. I had a feeling something like that was going on. It's actually MacDonogh this time, saying that Seckendorff "sent the gossip back to Vienna," without ever stating that Seckendorff didn't believe it or implying any disbelief on his own part other than attributing it to "gossip." He makes it sound like Seckendorff is reporting this as the best source he's got.

Both authors are prone to mis-citing their sources in amazing ways. I would like to blame poor French/German, but Blanning mis-cites Voltaire's memoirs, which have been *translated into English*.

As noted, Asprey gets around this problem by not citing! And when he does, it's a book, not a page number.

All on page 57 of the first Jessen volume.

Just to spare you confusion in case you ever find yourself looking up Jessen in a hard copy: there's only one physical volume. I proactively split the pdfs because you had trouble downloading the large Fredersdorf file back in December.