cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 11

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In our last installment, our heroes found that Henri de Catt's memoirs, a major source for current biographers of Frederick the Great, are not to be trusted!!

rheinsberg

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yeeeeah. Ouch. I... it's definitely not surprising to me that Fritz may have had a lot of kind of awful emotional stuff going on *even on top* of the expected awful stuff.

Plus, new awful stuff keeps popping up. I mean, we all know about Katte's beheading, and I had read the letter before, but then Grumbkow's "How about being aloof with the ONLY confidant and support system you have left??" comes along to match Wilhelmine's account in her memoirs, and then my heart has to break for Fritz (and Wilhelmine) all over again.

From:

selenak

Same here. I mean, all the other tips are actually useful in a "how to survive FW and keep on his good side" manner, but "erect boundaries with Wilhelmine" from Grumbkow has to come either from FW or be caused by direct observation that FW is displeased by sibling closeness and wishes them apart. Which, if you think about it, makes coldblooded sense: with her marriage, Wilhelmine loses her value as a hostage. She's in Bayreuth, FW can't threaten her anymore with anything but cut her and her husband off from money. Certainly not with shutting her away from the world. So Fritz and Wilhelmine remaining close has no more plus, and only a minus, because a tyrant always wants to remain the sole focus of emotional attention.

If I find more time, I might to cheer you up get some quotes from 1730s letters from Fritz to Wilhelmine proving that despite what he says to Outsiders like Mitchell or Catt about FW, this did not work, because towards Wilhelmine, he sounds as jaundiced about dear old Dad as ever. Which is presumably yet another reason why Grumbkow (and/or FW) want them apart. Note that Wilhelmine in her memoirs also mentions people keep telling her through the 1730s Fritz has cooled off on her and later that he doesn't love her anymore. At a guess, that might courtiers in Grumbkow/ other FW employees as well.

And that's leaving aside SD as testified by Seckendorff Jr. badmouthing her daughter to her Father. That family...

From:

mildred_of_midgard

this did not work, because towards Wilhelmine, he sounds as jaundiced about dear old Dad as ever.

"One can compel by force some poor wretch to utter a certain form of words, yet he will deny to it his inner consent; thus the persecutor has gained nothing" doesn't just apply to religion! It also works for messed-up family dynamics.

By the way, MacDonogh gives the siblings a hard time for their letters that make it clear they're hoping FW dies soon:

During the period of the king’s illness, the tone of Frederick’s correspondence with Wilhelmina took on a sinister, anticipatory air as they waited for the not so old man to die. The letters read like a couple of Hollywood villains planning to murder a rich relative.

And this just makes me so angry. He tried running away from his abuser and things just got a million times worse! Death is the only hope of escape he's got now. I cannot blame either of them for looking forward to it.

Note that Wilhelmine in her memoirs also mentions people keep telling her through the 1730s Fritz has cooled off on her and later that he doesn't love her anymore.

Fritz's letters to her also reflect this: "Stop believing I don't love you! Have some more faith in me!"

And that's leaving aside SD as testified by Seckendorff Jr. badmouthing her daughter to her Father. That family...

:-(

No wonder Fritz turned into the very model of a modern Hohenzollern therapist.

From:

selenak

McDonogh: The letters read like a couple of Hollywood villains planning to murder a rich relative.

And this just makes me so angry. He tried running away from his abuser and things just got a million times worse! Death is the only hope of escape he's got now. I cannot blame either of them for looking forward to it

Same here. I see the fact they still had mixed feelings about their parents (in Wilhelmine's case)/father at all instead of wanting FW dead all the time as a minor miracle. Though mixed feelings are more typical for abused children than not. Btw, here are the promised quotes from the Fritz and Wilhelmine correspondance proving Fritz didn't really go "Dad was right, I was wrong" in the 1730s. Noteworthy for including the sole occasion when Fritz voices criticism of SD as well as FW.

He dates a letter "September 1733, Wusterhausen, for my sins" and writes: "The King is bittersweet. Frankly, he's displeased by your departure, but you do well not to worry about that. We hope to leave in eight days, but I ask you to pray for our souls in purgatory..."

March 19th 1734: Dearest sister, I envy you for not being here, for our gracious sovereign and queen have agreed on alternating being in a terrible mood. One doesn't know how one stands with them; today, one gets overwhelmed with tendernesses, tomorrow, there are only sore faces and unfriendly words. In short, their mood switches from one day to the next. (...)

The King's mood has become unbearable, he hates me like sin, and the crownn princess' credit with him is nearly gone. Still, I mock everything and am in a good mood. I'm not grieving and solely feel sorry for the King who finds himself unable to show affection to his children.

In chronology terms, this after he finally got permission to go campaigning with Eugene:

June 14th, 1734: I bothered the King long enough till he has permitted me to travel via Bayreuth upon my return, but not via Ansbach, which doesn't make me too sad. (So much for sister Friederike Luise.) The Queen was very angry with me, but I have found ways and means of mollifying her. I've made peace with the King at the cost of a calf which has been made the scapegoat. You know yourself what is is like to try and get along with two people of such different characters. This is more than serving two masters. I often experience great distress through it, but the respect I owe to my parents shuts me up. The King isn't doing too well. You know I'm not superstitious, so you can rely on me all the more when I say: it's either gout or...

No wonder Fritz turned into the very model of a modern Hohenzollern therapist.

On that note, Fritz to Grumbkow, apropos EC:

The King should consider that he's marrying me (off) and not himself! He will have a thousand times the displeasure if he puts two people together who hate each other, if he sees the most miserable marriage of the world and listens to the mutual complaints which will be accusations against him for creating the yoke that ties us together.(...) Hasn't he seen enough in his own life what a miserable marriage is like?

*Heinrich and Mina: start coughing*
*FW2 & both his wives: nearly choke*

Edited Date: 2020-02-10 03:19 pm (UTC)