cahn | Announcing Rheinsberg: Frederick the Great discussion post 10

So for anyone who is reading this and would like to learn more about Frederick the Great and his contemporaries, but who doesn't want to wade through 500k (600k?) words worth of comments and an increasingly sprawling comment section:

We now have a community,

rheinsberg, that has quite a lot of the interesting historical content (and more coming regularly), organized nicely with lots of lovely tags so if there's any subject you are interested in it is easy to find :D

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From:

selenak

That's what I have no idea about. I consider it 50/50 he tried vs. he knew she'd never talk. My confidence that she wouldn't talk is why I have no idea.

Same here. I would say this, though: Fritzian paranoia and control issues make me slightly biased in favor of "they tried a few times early on". Because:

a) As Manteuffel points out and Fritz agrees, as long as he doesn't provide an heir, AW, favourite son of Dad, remains directly after him in the succession. No matter how nice a guy Fritz truly thinks AW is, this is a threat even if you're less suspicious than our traumatized antihero. And remember, Grandpa F1 openly accused his stepmother of having poisoned his brothers, and intending to kill him to make her sons inherit the crown, and went as far as demanding hostages before agreeing to see Father Great Elector. The family tradition isn't great there. (Leaving aside other countries with a tried and true tradition of ambitious younger brothers.) Anyway, a baby would mean added security to Fritz (especially since FW bypassing him in favour of a baby is far less likely than FW bypassing him in favour of growing into teenagehood AW).

b) Can't see Fritz go for the Gustav solution. Even a discreet version of same. Because even if pious EC would be on board with having extramarital sex because her husband told her to, whether or not a threesome is involved, that would give another man really great power over him. And yes, there's a big difference to old Fritz expressing understanding for young Elisabeth and possibly okaying a fling to provide a male heir as long as she's discreet. Not just a few decades more of added cynicism. He's the monarch and the ultimate controller in the second scenario. In the first, Dad is still alive, he himself could be exposed as a voluntary cuckold, which is the very thing men love to ridicule other men for, and who the hell is this potential sperm donor supposed to be whom Fritz would trust to keep his mouth shut and never ever to blackmail him? Fredersdorff is out of the question, since he's a commoner. Suhm? He's maybe the loveliest and nicest of sugar daddies, but he's also working for another country.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Agree that it's unlikely that Fritz authorized someone else fathering an heir. I never did think it was even possible, until I saw that "she can do what she wants" letter. Which, you know, might well have been what he thought before it was time for an actual practical application of "my wife sleeping with everyone but me."

Wrt to a), though, I would present the following data points for the sake of argument:

1) If you believe schemer Seckendorff (if!), Fritz had to be bullied by FW into joining EC on his wedding night in the first place, and he skedaddled as soon as he could. Now, that might just be common gossip and not the report from the horse's (FW) mouth, but if it's true, it suggests Fritz was willing to let the marriage go unconsummated. Might be worth checking Förster to see if he's got that Seckendorff report to Vienna, because MacDonogh cites Jessen for both this quote and the Eugene quote that turned out to be in Förster. So Förster might be Jessen's source.

2) By September 1736, when he moves into Rheinsberg and actually starts living with his wife for the first time, Fritz is already preparing everyone for the possibility that he's not going to have any heirs, and explaining how that's super not a problem. He writes to Manteuffel:

I'm very obliged to you for your wishes concerning my procreation, and I have the same destiny as the deer, which are currently rutting. In nine months, it could turn out the way you hope. I don't know if this would be a good or a bad thing for our nephews and great-nephews. Kingdoms always find successors, and there's no example of a throne that stayed empty.

So, yes, he's *claiming* he's sleeping with her, but he's basically telling everyone to stay chill if no kid shows up, which makes me side-eye his claim so hard. More to the point, he evidently doesn't mind drawing Manteuffel's attention to AW as possible future father of the heir to the kingdom, even if he doesn't want AW or Heinrich getting any money or leverage from Saxony, and even if your interpretation is correct that as late as 1739, there were rumors about FW choosing AW as the heir.

Fritz might not have felt fathering an heir was worth the added security, after all. Or, maybe in those first three years he tried, but had given up by 1736 (and was trying to set expectations correctly now that he was living with her, which he can't have enjoyed the prospect of).

Oh, btw, looking these quotes up in Blanning finally identified for me *which* Wartensleben was one of the 6 "I have loved the most": Friedrich von Wartensleben, who other Seckendorf was friendly with, whom you've referred to in the diary, and who was part of the Rheinsberg circle. Or at least narrowed it down by giving me a first name.

Because assuming it's Grandpa Wartensleben's line, he has two sons named Friedrich, both born around the same time: 1707 and 1709, who are still alive into the 70s and 80s, and hence in 1736. I said elsewhere that Friedrich was Katte's first cousin on his mother's side, but I was wrong, he must be one of the uncles, who was actually Katte's age, because Grandpa Wartensleben was fathering some 17 kids over the course of 32 years. (Which I had noted before.)

Anyway, Friedrich Wartensleben as possible candidate for fathering the heir? He's around at the right place and time, he's Prussian, he's got the right bloodline, i.e. old prestigious noble family close to the king--I was joking about Katte's cousin and thinking of the Katte side of the family, but hey! bonus points for favoring Katte's family--he's the right age, and he's evidently trusted by Fritz. :P Trusted enough to not blackmail him, idk, I don't know the first thing about this guy, but it's a thought.

I still think it's unlikely! But without knowing anything about him, I think he's more likely than Fredersdorf (totally out of the question, I agree), or Suhm the Saxon Sugar Daddy.

Edited Date: 2020-02-04 06:07 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

hahahaha, my bet is on him trying once or twice very early on, feeling aggrieved that this does not result in a kid even though it's SUPPOSED to (am I projecting twenty-first century religiously-conservative attitudes on this?? FW was so sexually repressed though that I could totally see him going NO EXTRAMARITAL SEX IT MAKES BABIES YOU KNOW, and also I guess he also had the example of fertile-SD), and then giving it all up as a bad deal (by mildred's date of Sept 1736). But this is just my headcanon, with no basis in anything :)

ETA: Even if Fredersdorf weren't a commoner, I can't imagine Fritz would have wanted to share!

Edited Date: 2020-02-04 05:35 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

ETA: Even if Fredersdorf weren't a commoner, I can't imagine Fritz would have wanted to share!

Haha! It would only work if Fredersdorf were super reluctant and only willing to make the great sacrifice for his prince. But even then, Fritz would have to propose it, and...no.

Love the mental image, though.

(am I projecting twenty-first century religiously-conservative attitudes on this??

Maybe? I'll let

selenak weigh in on 18th century mores, but I feel like it's the act of non-procreative-and-church-authorized sex that's the problem, not the baby-making per se. I mean, masturbation is also off the table, and we have the Biblical "he who lusts in his heart after a woman is guilty of adultery" prohibition that I feel that FW totally bought into, and the idea that chasing women makes you not only a sinner but effeminate and weak and likely to spend money on them, all of which I feel were a bigger deal to FW than any inadvertent babies. Though he certainly wouldn't want him or his son financially supporting these wages of sin, that's for sure.

Fertile SD, though, definitely an example on Fritz's mind. "I had sex with her twice! I even managed to ejaculate once. She must not be fertile and there's no point in continuing. ~~Yay!~~ I mean, that's terrible. Nobody panic, though: Mom and Dad more than made up for my lackluster procreating efforts! I'm sure to have nephews and great-nephews in droves."

Edited Date: 2020-02-04 06:05 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Haha! It would only work if Fredersdorf were super reluctant and only willing to make the great sacrifice for his prince. But even then, Fritz would have to propose it, and...no.

Gustav: whereas I had no problem getting myself obeyed in that department. Sure, my guy put everything in writing and had it deposed to the Swedish Academy, so the entire world eventually found out, and sure, Mom hit the roof when brother Charles told her about it, but hey! An heir was had!

SD's fertility contributing to Fritz coming quickly to the conclusion that EC isn't fertile and hence he's not obliged to try anymore: Sounds very likely! And you know, they're not the Habsburgs, but the Hohenzollerns of Fritz' generation otherwise procreated quickly if they tried. Wilhelmine got pregnant in her first year of marriage, same with the other sisters, AW might have been a negligent and indifferent husband to Louise but the first two kids happened quickly, and then the later two with a gap but still, they happened. Ferdinand/his niece produced offspring, too. So Friedrich and Heinrich being the two exceptions from the "marry, multiply" rule rather points to the obvious element in common as the reason...

By which I don't mean the gayness - that never stopped Philippe D'Orleans from getting both of his wives pregnant multiple times, even though not all kids survived - but the stubborn " you can make me marry her, Dad/Fritz, but you can't make me have sex with her!" attitude.

feel like it's the act of non-procreative-and-church-authorized sex that's the problem, not the baby-making per se. I mean, masturbation is also off the table, and we have the Biblical "he who lusts in his heart after a woman is guilty of adultery" prohibition that I feel that FW totally bought into, and the idea that chasing women makes you not only a sinner but effeminate and weak and likely to spend money on them, all of which I feel were a bigger deal to FW than any inadvertent babies.

Yes. He doesn't seem to have been worried Fritz would inflict lots of bastards on the royal line even when thinking Fritz/poor Doris Ritter were an item. He had that midwife test her for virginity, not pregnancy. Also WHORES. Both FW and his son had a lot to say about men being ruled by same - meaning usually, but not exclusively Louis XV. With FW, "no whores!" is on the Opening paragraph of the Political Testament. With Fritz, of course, some of the Catt (memoirs) quotes are now suspicious, but I just read, courtesy of Mildred' algorithm, in the diary:

page 406: His Majesty was very tired. We talked about Berlin and the way of life. I let many things pass. There is a lot of coquetry, he tells me, among the great world. I say to them one day: Ladies, you do what we do everywhere; but do try a little more decency. I do not say anything. I tolerate these intrigues if they are a result of passion; but when it's out of interest, it's awful. I prefer one who pays, than one who is paid. I have often said to husbands who came to complain: You are doing something stupid, it will be disclosed.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Gustav: whereas I had no problem getting myself obeyed in that department.

Oh, I didn't mean that Fredersdorf would be reluctant to obey Fritz. I meant he'd have to make a big production out of how he was reluctant to sleep with EC and was ONLY doing it to to obey Fritz. So as to assuage Fritz's jealousies. Much like how he had to marry a NURSE to keep Fritz chill about sharing.

He had that midwife test her for virginity, not pregnancy. Also WHORES

Which reminds me, you told us that MT's sex policing banned all extramarital sex, but made an exception for illegitimate mothers, to prevent infanticide and abortion. My sense is that the major objection in the past was to unsanctioned lust, rather than the irresponsible procreation of much of today's discourse. Of course, for *women*, foisting a bastard on your husband was a huge problem with extramarital sex, but that was much much less of a problem for men who wanted to have extramarital sex.

I prefer one who pays, than one who is paid.

Says the man who was on the prowl for a sugar daddy all through the 1730s! :P I guess it doesn't count if you just flirt and don't put out? Or more to the point, it doesn't count if you're *Fritz*.

Edited Date: 2020-02-05 05:02 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

prefer one who pays, than one who is paid.

Says the man who was on the prowl for a sugar daddy all through the 1730s!

But Mildred, that's the point! Of course he likes people who pay better. He always did! The ones who get paid surely are the competition!

More seriously, those 1730s activities do make that high and mightiness about the Marquise de Pompadour awfully hypocritical. Not just on Fritz' part, but on the part of many of his biographers. "The greedy mistress of Louis XV" and so forth. I do remember that letter to Wilhelmine saying "Eh, you can offer her this and that sum" (if she persuaded Louis to change alliances again), I suppose, and that Madame la Marquise turned the offer down.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

But Mildred, that's the point! Of course he likes people who pay better. He always did! The ones who get paid surely are the competition!

ROTFLOL.

Remember this?

Fritz: Suhm, please read Seneca's chapter on indifference to wealth.
Fritz: Great! Now that you don't care about money, can I have yours?

:DDD

More seriously, in a lifetime of hypocrisy, there is little that Fritz was more hypocritical about than money. If you ask me, he's trying to compensate for a deprived childhood. Anyone trying to take money that could be his is a trigger that emotionally puts him back in a place where he has to live without books and music and adequate food.

I think his obsession with good food, what he described as "disorderly cravings, like a pregnant woman," and his apparent inability to keep from bolting it (even when he had no trouble skipping meals or living on tight rations) stems from the same source.

Oh, sheesh, I think that quote may be from Catt's memoirs. ANYWAY, it's probably something Catt observed, even if Fritz wasn't as self-aware as he's made out to be. (In addition to possibly revise my opinion about his slut-shaming, I'm having to revisit the evidence for his self-awareness. Also, one wonders if Catt the devoted fan would have put "like a pregnant woman" in his hero's mouth, even after the breakup.)

And that, oddly enough, is one of the reasons I think Fritz may actually have had a low sex drive. Because once Dad was dead, and even at Rhinesberg, he should have been all over the boyfriends in an incontrovertible way.

And maybe he was, and we're viewing it through a lens of 250 years of homophobia on the part of people determined to preserve their hero's reputation. Maybe he was bedding down left and right with Marwitz and Glasow and Claus and Darget and Fredersdorf and Algarotti, and he just had to preserve some plausible deniability, by claiming his relationship with Algarotti was purely intellectual, Marwitz wasn't anything to write home about, etc.

But the fact that it remained so deniable, and the fact that he spent that much time denying it, and the fact that people like Heinrich or Algarotti leave us in no doubt about their sexual activity, and the fact that there are so few candidates and he spent relatively little time with them (even Fredersdorf and he are frequently separated after 1740), and the fact that Trenck absolutely would have talked...it kind of makes me think he'd figured out that he liked the idea of sex better than the act.

But I may revise this opinion after rereading Blanning, who spends a lot of time arguing that Fritz was homosexually active into the 1750s. I'll see how convincing his arguments are.