cahn | Announcing Rheinsberg: Frederick the Great discussion post 10

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So for anyone who is reading this and would like to learn more about Frederick the Great and his contemporaries, but who doesn't want to wade through 500k (600k?) words worth of comments and an increasingly sprawling comment section:

We now have a community,

rheinsberg, that has quite a lot of the interesting historical content (and more coming regularly), organized nicely with lots of lovely tags so if there's any subject you are interested in it is easy to find :D

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

he didn't love anyone, except possibly Fredersdorf

I'm still amazed that Fredersdorf rather than Wilhelmine was the exception. After years of abuse and faking love with the one person who stood by him and suffered with him, he suddenly acquired the ability to love at age 19, while imprisoned? But then never used it again?

Oh, wait, I'm trying to make sense of the senseless. Never mind!

But seriously, if he was going to only ever love one person, it would be either SD or Wilhelmine, imo.

From:

selenak

I'm still amazed that Fredersdorf rather than Wilhelmine was the exception.

Jürgen Luh, like Judith Zinsser with Voltaire vs De Lambert, is put off by all the French written Rokoko emo in the letters to Wilhelmine, Suhm et al and qualifies it as posing and rethoric, written with an eye to posterity, whereas he sees the secret German emo in the Fredersdorf letters as possibly genuine, seeing as it was decidedly not written for anyone but Fredersdorf to read. Somehow, the fact that Wilhelmine and Fredersdorf (and Suhm, and Algarotti, and just about anyone who's sick) gets the "live for meeeeee!" in whatever language, does not seem to be a shared factor here.)

I should add here that actually the 1926 editor of the Fredersdorf letters, who is the oppposite of a Deconstructing Fritz biographer like Luh, also suggests the relationship with Fredersdorf was more genuine (FATHERLY FATHERLY FATHERLY) love, but not for Luh's reasons - he just doesn't consider Wilhelmine worthy. Fredersdorf, after, all, never had lunch with MT, nor did he carry on corresponding with perfidious Frenchmen who broke our national hero's heart!

But seriously, if he was going to only ever love one person, it would be either SD or Wilhelmine, imo.

Oh, agreed. BTW, the passage in Seckendorff's diary quoted below about SD hating on Wilhelmine up to the mid 1730s and telling FW "odious stories" about her, which Seckendorff Jr. wonders might spoil things for her with her son (it didn't) did make me wonder. If Wilhelmine by not encouraging Fritz to make a run for it and escape the abuse (because she was afraid it would fail, because she didn't want to be left alone in hell, for a variety of reasons) did something which, as with Katte, in his subconscious he resented her for yet could not express, even to himself, why (so it might have come out much later in the 1740s during their crisis)... it could also be possible that Fritz blinding himself (as he had to) to the fact that while Best of Mothers might do all she could to please him (as per Mantteuffel), she was abusing his sister, also caused such a subconscious resentment gathering reaction inside Wilhelmine which in turn contributed to her cathartic memoirs writings (with their critical deictions of 1730s and early 1740s Fritz)? (And they were cathartic for her; after their reconciliation, she never seems to have doubted his emotions for her again, as if she'd gotten all out of her system.)

Incidentally: SD being so hostile towards her oldest daughter that foreign ambassadors notice it - still revenge for Wilhelmine having failed her (in her eyes) by not holding out for the English marriage, or awareness that when the next regime comes, it's not EC who is going to be her competition for royal woman most important to the next King? In any case, what all the verbal abuse through the early 1730s reminds me of is also Fritz' behaviour to AW in the year between the casheering and AW's death. Yes, FW was the chief royal role model for wanting the crown prince who has failed you (in your eyes) broken and submitting by an admission he was utterly wrong and you were utterly right, but what SD was doing with Wilhelmine had more scapegoating in it. It could never be SD's fault for having asked the impossible from her daughter (and driven her children into a war with their father they couldn't win), it was Wilhelmine's fault that she failed to become Queen of England.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

he sees the secret German emo in the Fredersdorf letters as possibly genuine, seeing as it was decidedly not written for anyone but Fredersdorf to read.

Okay, at least there's some coherence to the argument. Thank you for clarifying. I still don't buy it, and like you said, he freaks out and uses "Live for me!" to all parties, and as I will always point out, that's the line that Wilhelmine said worked on *him*...maybe the guy is just emo and had a lot of people taken away from him by force, and he's not good at letting go.

If Wilhelmine by not encouraging Fritz to make a run for it and escape the abuse (because she was afraid it would fail, because she didn't want to be left alone in hell, for a variety of reasons)

This. And the fact that whether it succeeded or failed, her hell would become a lot worse.

did something which, as with Katte, in his subconscious he resented her for yet could not express, even to himself, why (so it might have come out much later in the 1740s during their crisis)

caused such a subconscious resentment gathering reaction inside Wilhelmine which in turn contributed to her cathartic memoirs writings

I couldn't agree more. I have always thought that both the siblings had some deeply buried resentment toward each other that couldn't find any outlet except in a big explosion, and that that contributed to their willingness to assume the worst of each other in the 1740s.

(And they were cathartic for her; after their reconciliation, she never seems to have doubted his emotions for her again, as if she'd gotten all out of her system.)

Gotten it out of her system, yes, and reliving the early years might have stirred up the memories that made it easier to reconcile.

Also, just to quote MacDonogh one more time, about the reconciliation: "Wilhelmina must have worked the gall out of her system by then: she had used it as ink for her memoirs." :)

still revenge for Wilhelmine having failed her (in her eyes) by not holding out for the English marriage, or awareness that when the next regime comes, it's not EC who is going to be her competition for royal woman most important to the next King?

Interesting, could be!

Yes, FW was the chief royal role model for wanting the crown prince who has failed you (in your eyes) broken and submitting by an admission he was utterly wrong and you were utterly right, but what SD was doing with Wilhelmine had more scapegoating in it. It could never be SD's fault for having asked the impossible from her daughter (and driven her children into a war with their father they couldn't win), it was Wilhelmine's fault that she failed to become Queen of England.

Oooh, yes, this is very accurate. Fritz definitely had a distinct lack of role models admitting to mistakes, and that must be a big part of his hurry to scapegoat.