![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnSo for anyone who is reading this and would like to learn more about Frederick the Great and his contemporaries, but who doesn't want to wade through 500k (600k?) words worth of comments and an increasingly sprawling comment section:
We now have a community,![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
rheinsberg, that has quite a lot of the interesting historical content (and more coming regularly), organized nicely with lots of lovely tags so if there's any subject you are interested in it is easy to find :D
We now have a community,
rheinsberg, that has quite a lot of the interesting historical content (and more coming regularly), organized nicely with lots of lovely tags so if there's any subject you are interested in it is easy to find :D
With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Date: 2020-02-01 09:49 am (UTC)Fréderic Wartensleben me raconte des particularités de Potsdam. Der König ist gesund, sagt er, wünscht zu sterben und hernach wieder auf zustehen, um die Veränderung mit anzuſehen Alexandre veut parier sa tête, que Junior n'a pas donné commission à Lichtenstein, de m'éloigner d'ici. Der Kronprinz hält mich vor unconversabel.
"Friedrich Wartensleben told me of the Potsdam oddities. The King is healthy, he says, wishes to die and to resurrect, in order to get to watch the changes. Alexander wants to bet his head, which Junior did not commissioned Lichtenstein to walk away from here. (? Help me out here, mes amies?) The crown prince doesn't consider me worthy of conversation."
Hence Other Seckendorff increasingly relying on Mantteuffel, I suppose. Anyway, this linguistic mix does make for an odd reading experience. Still, there are all kinds of interesting cross connections, like this one. Remember, Biberius = Grumbkow. The Countess Fuchs may be chief lady in waiting to the current empress, but more importantly, she's the governess of the archduchess Maria Theresia. Orondates = original Seckendorff? Suhm? I honestly don't know. It's not FW, that's clear from the context.)
I know from Biberius, that Pöllnitz wrote to the countess Fuchs, grand-mistress
from the Empress, a twenty page letter with sharp sayings from Orondates. And the Devil will try to ingratiate himself with Pöllnit so that Pöllnitz shows him the letter, which is sure to make for an entertaining reading. "t is very good that Orondates is gone: because with his suspicions he would have ruined everything, and given all the trouble which he enjoyed stirring between the crownl prince and the king, he would soon have put everything into confusion and disunity.
More than it already is, you mean? Anyway, this also makes it look like Orondates = Original Seckendorff:
Borck (the general). He told Biberius that the king according to Gotter sounds friendly towards Orondates: “It's not true that I don't like him. I deem him to be a great General and a reasonable and capable man."
The journal mentions "Katte" repeatedly, but context makes it apparant it's always Hans Heinrich. Also, in 1734, when journal writer Seckendorff arrives, FW has one of his worst dropsy attacks resulting in touching father-son scene on page 11 already:
The Crown Prince is truly touched by the king's situation; there are always tears in his eyes, he's cried his heart out, has worked to get a more comfortable bed for the King; hadn't wanted to leave Potsdam. At last the King has forced him to, and told him not to return before Saturday afternoon. "As long as the king does live, I would give an arm to extend his life by twenty years." The King has called him "Fritzchen" all the time.
In case anyone thinks Wilhelmine is exaggarating Mom's hostility towards her (and EC) in the first half of the 1730s, here's Seckendorff backing her up, on page 69, June 8th:
Olympia. She seems to be very indifferent to the subject of Vitellius' disease, so apparently is tired lying to him, and hoping well for the future; but she could be terribly wrong in her calculation: because, although she hates the crown princess and the later being liked by Junior the most, Olympia at the same time also hates the heriditary princess of Bayreuth and does her ill services with her father, telling him all kind of odious stories about her. And that's where she spoils everything with Junior, who values this Bayreuth sister beyond expression and who, according to appearances, will make make her shine in favour one day.
Well, she won't "spoil everything with Junior" but it supports that at least 1730s Fritz was aware SD was a different mother to Wilhelmine than she was to him. Now I knew via Wilhelmine's memoirs she hadn't given up her English marriage intentions but transferred them to Charlotte, only to be foiled again. Something I've also learned through Seckendorff's diary is that SD then transferred them to Ulrike, no more with the Prince of Wales - who'd tied the knot by then - but a younger brother. No dice, though as we know, Ulrike will be the only daughter to become Queen. And this, Hohenzollern boys, is why your sisters have a different impression of Mom than you do. Not that FW as a father to his daughters was anything to write home about. Voit was the Bayreuth envoy to Prussia.
June 13th: Voit from Bayreuth gets an audience with the King. - "Should I congratulate or send my condolences? My daughter has to let herself be f... better."
: The news question can't have been the birth of his granddaughter, since that girl was already born in August 1732, so I'm assuming it was the death of the old Margrave? Anyway, the FW quote is in German, and either the editor or Seckendorf writes f.... Same word than in English, if you're wondering, with an i instead of an u.
Everyone distrusts everyone else on the court. Discussed is whether or not Fritz gets to join the already sadly senile Eugene at Philippsburg:
28th The king graciously refuses to permit the crown prince permission to join the campaign. Alexander Wartensleben tells me that the King's illness is just pretense, and that father and son are in good standing with each other.
29th: The King gives the Crown Prince permission to join the campaign, under the condition that the two imperials corpses join his etc.
No detail is too insignificant to be noted down for its potential political implication, as when FW orders little Ferdinand to get a Polish page so he picks up some of the language. Potential Prussian designs on Poland? Also, here's other Seckendorff on a much debated topic:
Frederic Wartensleben tells me, that crown prince sleeps with the crown princess, and that he reprimanded Count Truchsess for what the later said about my uncle and me.
On July 6th, FW is having second thoughts again about letting Fritz hang out with Eugene:
The King is afraid that Junior might become too good an Imperial if he leaves him too long with the (imperial) army. (No danger there, FW.)
So what's your opinion on chatty Pöllnitz, FW?
"Pöllnitz is a writer. A writer doesn't have a clue about soldiers. If Pöllnitz tells me about the Ansbach and Bayreuth courts, I believe him; but if he talks about complete an incomplete armies, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
When Fritz is feeling let down by Eugene who has lost most of his memory not being the legendary figure he expected, and the campaign is mostly boring, FW is gleeful:
Judge for yourself whether I shouldn't bee happy that the old guy is made fun off, especially since I can't stand the fact the Emperor and I share a Field Marshal. You may write all this in confidence to General Seckendorff.
While FW will indeed be indignant about not being told of the FS/MT marriage until after the fact, he evidently knew Franzl was a primary candidate for her hand, because in October 1735, i.e. before the marriage, the journal notes:
He charged Gotter with all the demonstrations of submission imaginable for the emperor and as many for the duke of Lorraine. "He should lay himself on the feet of the Emperor and kiss his ass."
FW is also protesting again and again how much he hates the French and how he'd never desert the Emperor for them. This is why Austria trading Lorraine to the French for the Pragmatic Sanction acknowledgment (remember, FS had to give up his dukedom for marrying MT) is regarded by him as as a betrayal (though not as much as the fact MT's dad doesn't back his claim on Jülich and Berg).
In January 1736, relationships between FW and Fritz are on the downslide again:
Biberius tells me about the secrets, that Junior confided in Pöllnitz. The King encourages him to produce children, had him made a marital bed out of velvet. Biberius does not believe, that Junior will survive the father, but that pessimus Wilhelmus will succeed one day.
Pessimus Wilhelmus, the worst William, is of course AW. But mostly FW is busy getting in advance indignant about the impeding marriage and the other claims on Jülich and Berg:
The Emperor treats me and all HRE princes like pushovers, which I certainly do not deserve form the Emperor. God knows I never arlied with France. I always ask myself whether I ever went against the Emperor's interests, and I can't find anything. And now I'm pushed aside for that son of a whore Mantelsack, and I doubt they'll notify me of the Duke of Lorraine marriage!
The Emperor, soothingly, sends some tall guys. Observes Seckendorff the journal writer, in German: "If France had as many tall fellows to offer as the Emperor, Prussia might be French by now, but this wouldn't have any more real effects as the professed allegiance to the Emperor.
And finally, the entry that caused Mildred to track down the journal to begin with, in May:
The king is outraged at the ignominious manner in which the mperial court treated him to what he claims in the matter of the preliminaries of peace, as well as regarding the report of the marriage of the duke of Lorraine, and the way the court still neglects him to this very hour. The king doesn't give a f- about the tall guys that the emperor can give him; he wants to be honored and distinguished as he thinks he deserved by his past conduct, which he always seeks to justify, saying by pointing at the Crown Prince: "Here is someone who will one day avenge me". And
although the king begins to moderate a lot in his passions and speeches, he cannot yet moderate anger when it comes to the negligence of the imperial court towards him,and tears come out of him in anger.
Then follows the amazing "What I really think about my family: By Fritz" entry courtesy of Mantteuffel, which I'm posted above, and that's as far as I've gotten for now. Thought? (Beyond: This has to be the biggest tantrum thrown about not getting a wedding invite in that century.)
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Date: 2020-02-02 12:54 am (UTC)"Friedrich Wartensleben told me of the Potsdam oddities. The King is healthy, he says, wishes to die and to resurrect, in order to get to watch the changes. Alexander wants to bet his head, which Junior did not commissioned Lichtenstein to walk away from here. (? Help me out here, mes amies?) The crown prince doesn't consider me worthy of conversation."
Wow, that is special. My guess: Alexandre (Wartensleben, probably Friedrich's brother and Katte's first cousin on his mother's side) is willing to bet his head (stake his life) that Junior didn't commission Lichtenstein to get me (Seckendorff or Friedrich?) sent away from here (probably court). What my weak French can't be sure of is whether that "que" means he's willing to bet that Fritz *didn't* commission Lichtenstein to get rid of the speaker, which would be my first reading of "que", and presupposes that someone has accused Fritz of doing it, or if it could possibly means the opposite, that he's willing to bet his head that Fritz did. In which case in English I'd expect "if", not "that", but who knows about French.
In the passage immediately before the Alcibiades/Socrates one, I noticed that Fritz disliked someone named Derschau intensely and was hoping Derschau would get a commission to a regiment so he would be sent away by the king and replaced by Alexandre Wartensleben, whom Fritz must like more.
Lichtenstein is Joseph Wenzel, Prince of Lichtenstein, current owner of the Antinous statue, as you informed us, and according to Wikipedia, Imperial envoy to Berlin 1735-1736.
Orondates = original Seckendorff? Suhm?
I'm skeptical it's Suhm, because I have no evidence that Suhm was ever a general, much less respected as one. Who *was* a general--yes, Seckendorff--but also Lichtenstein. Per Wikipedia, "Joseph was primarily a general and was a very successful campaigner. In 1745, he was made Generalissimo in Italy and was victorious the following year at the Battle of Piacenza. In 1753 he was made General Chief Commander in Hungary. In one of the greatest achievements of his career, he reorganised the Habsburg artillery, partially financed out of his own pocket."
And he left Berlin in 1736, if you trust Wikipedia. I don't know the dates of your passage where the writer is glad he's gone, but the timing might line up. Also, all that bit about "suspicions" and "enjoyed stirring up trouble" just doesn't give me a Seckendorff vibe, although god knows what one courtier will accuse another of. I'm still leaning toward Lichtenstein as Orondates.
Okay, now I'm searching for "Orondate" through the text.
Oh, look at that! The first line on the next page after your passage where FW says Orondates is a capable general reads, "car Gotter ne dit pas, que le roi n'avoit pu souffrir Lichtenstein."
So Orondates = Lichtenstein! Detective Mildred is on the case. :D
Oh, and of course, the first use of the name Orondates (p. 56, May 22) is actually footnoted by the editor as the Prince of Lichtenstein. Well, yes, editor, I had figured that out!
June 13th: Voit from Bayreuth gets an audience with the King. - "Should I congratulate or send my condolences? My daughter has to let herself be f... better."
: The news question can't have been the birth of his granddaughter, since that girl was already born in August 1732
Weird, I remember that quote from MacDonogh, but he says it was on the occasion of the birth of the granddaughter. Which makes sense out of context, but you're right, the timing is weird. The old margrave died just one month before, so maybe he's referring to the fact that the new margrave doesn't have a male heir of his body.
The King is afraid that Junior might become too good an Imperial if he leaves him too long with the (imperial) army. (No danger there, FW.)
Ha! Not for lack of trying. MacDonogh reports, on the other side, "Eugene himself had set some store by the meeting. He wanted to eliminate Frederick’s gallic leanings and bring him round to the imperial cause. In the end, however, he found that the French 'poison' had gone too deep."
Don't worry, Eugene, the French aren't going to be too happy with him either! Junior's going to be an equal opportunity offender of nations.
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Date: 2020-02-02 07:49 am (UTC)This is probably the same person whom Seckendorff Jr. later in his Vienna debriefing names as "Derschauer" (as in, Fritz still hates him for 1730) - and this makes me wonder whether it's actually "Dessauer"? (I.e. typical 18th century misspelling?) As in, Old Dessauer, this guy, whom people certainly thought Fritz disliked and assumed would fire but whom he actually kept used to invade Silesia in 1740?
Kudos to you, Detective, for identifying Lichtenstein as Orondates!
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Date: 2020-02-02 05:06 pm (UTC)whom he actually kept used to invade Silesia in 1740
Huh, I thought Fritz left him behind and said it would look bad if he took his tutor to war? (I.e., Dessauer would get credit.) Ah, Wikipedia says, "The prince [Dessauer] himself was not often employed in the king's [Fritz's] own army, though his sons held high commands under Frederick. The king, indeed, found Leopold somewhat difficult to manage, and the prince spent most of the campaigning years up to 1745 in command of an army of observation on the Saxon frontier."
So yeah, Fritz doesn't seem to be a fan.
It seems from that paragraph in Seckendorff that I mentioned, about Fritz wanting Derschau sent away, that Fritz doesn't like this Derschau guy's influence on the King. But one, I don't think the Alte Dessauer is getting sent away by FW any time soon, I think that's a lost cause. Also, it occurs to me that Fritz said "get his own regiment," and the Dessauer should be way past that point.
Okay, searching through the journal, the first instance of "Derschau" is footnoted merely as "colonel and favorite of the king." So it can't be the Old Dessauer, but it could be one of his sons.
Although Wikipedia said Fritz gave the sons high command. Let me read their entries.
Oh, ha, guess what! Not our guy (at least if the editor can be trusted to have the rank right), but one of the Alte Dessauer's sons actually defected to the Austrians in 1743!
I still can't figure out who the colonel who's favorite of the king and Fritz hates is, though.
But okay, from googling, it looks like Derschau is the name of a Prussian noble family. Aha, it must be this guy. Christian Reinhold von Derschau. He was a colonel at the right time, got his own regiment in 1738, and was a close confidant of FW.
Found him!
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Date: 2020-02-02 06:46 pm (UTC)Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Date: 2020-02-02 06:52 pm (UTC)Fritz was really kind of a mixed bag, good and bad. (That's why he's my fave, let's be real.)
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Date: 2020-02-03 09:27 am (UTC)Though I have to say, I can now see where the German editor of the Gutenberg version who says he cut down Trenck's three volume Rokoko rants and emo to a one volume book "where nothing of value was lost, and a decent adventure novel gained" is coming from. Some of it is due to a change of tastes and conservatism, sure. As in the cut of the entire dedication to the Ghost of Frederick the Great, which is just so very Trenckian, and all the cuts where Trenck snarks multi directional about the power of monarchs. Also I am amused that where Gutenberg Trenck just says that slanderous rumor has Fritz asleep at Soor and being captured by Austrian Trenck, then released due to a bribe, which he, Prussian Trenck, knows to be false because Fritz wasn't even there, he'd already been up and about since 2 am, English translated Trenck renders the evil rumor he's refuting as the King supposedly being in bed with Demoiselle de Schwerin when Austrian Trenck shows up. (I'm with you, Prussian Trenck: Pure slander, that one.)
But Prussian Trenck also rarely misses an opportunity for an outburst about how his poor, poor children have been robbed of their rights to the Trenck estates due to all the injustice that has been happening to him in his life, he's publishing these memoirs mainly for their sake, or no one suffered as much as him, how everyone knows he's the greatest and most blameless and a model of brave manhood and so forth. If the Gutenberg edition already left me with the impression of "he does protest too much", good lord, does the English edition ever. Hence my slightly greater sympathy for the stiff upper lip favouring Gutenberg edition editor.
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Date: 2020-02-04 06:52 am (UTC)Agreed, but! You could just as easily start off your reign with a "don't fuck with me" example, and Fritz chose to create goodwill instead.
If you ask me, the difference is that he didn't feel any of those people were a threat to him any more, and so he was able to reason about what would serve his interests best.
English translated Trenck renders the evil rumor he's refuting as the King supposedly being in bed with Demoiselle de Schwerin when Austrian Trenck shows up.
Aha! Well, good thing we acquired the English version, even if it is heavy on the rants and emo. The ghost dedication is priceless!
(I'm with you, Prussian Trenck: Pure slander, that one.)
And not even convincing slander! Fritz in bed with a woman in 1745, pfff. I'm still divided on whether he was even still going to bed with men in 1745!
Hence my slightly greater sympathy for the stiff upper lip favouring Gutenberg edition editor.
I find this very amusing. :D
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Date: 2020-02-10 04:49 am (UTC)Yeah, my school French agrees with mildred's first reading ("Alexandre wants to bet his head that Junior has not given a commission to Lichenstein"). But I guess I can't rule out her second reading, although it's not something I've really seen before (in my not-very-large experience of French).
"Should I congratulate or send my condolences? My daughter has to let herself be f... better."
Man, FW.
The Emperor, soothingly, sends some tall guys. Observes Seckendorff the journal writer, in German: "If France had as many tall fellows to offer as the Emperor, Prussia might be French by now
LOL forever. Someday I will get to the Hille tall guys comment, but let me just say here that I find it utterly hilarious how all of Europe knows about FW's tall guy thing and thinks it's as crazy as, well, we do.
Re: With Liars among Liars: The Austrian Dossier (Seckendorf II)
Date: 2020-02-10 04:54 am (UTC)Same, the only reason I came up with it is because it requires context that we don't have to understand why Alexandre is betting his head that Junior *didn't* give him a commission. But it's a very, very elliptical entry, and it's more than likely they've had an argument in which Seckendorf was insisting that Fritz *did* try to get rid of him.
let me just say here that I find it utterly hilarious how all of Europe knows about FW's tall guy thing and thinks it's as crazy as, well, we do.
All of Europe, or at least the heads of state, know about FW's tall guy thing because
a) They send him tall guys to get on his good side (the Emperor, Peter the Great, etc.)
b) They get pissed off when he kidnaps tall guys from their country and starts diplomatic incidents (August, George, many others)
c) All of the above.