cahn | Frederick the Great reveal post / discussion post 8

In the last several months, as anyone who reads this DW knows,

selenak and I have been part of this quite frankly amazing Frederick the Great fandom, and I sort of assumed that the two people in this fandom who actually knew anything, mildred and selenak, were going to write fics for Yuletide, and I (who know nothing except what they've told me in the last several months) was going to awesomely enjoy reading them. In fact, mildred wrote a Fredersdorf fic for selenak's prompt which I betaed, but then mildred's medical issues got bad enough to interfere with her writing fic (making the beta edits would have involved a substantial amount of rewrite), and she wrote a post lamenting she wasn't going to be able to produce any yuletide fic. Meanwhile, I had two fics that I was pretty sure were from

selenak, and I thought it would be a shame for her to write us fic and for her not to get any :(

So then mildred and I had this (very paraphrased) conversation (

mildred_of_midgard has her own account here, and she has promised to reproduce the actual conversation in comments to this post):

me: You know, we should really write something for selenak! Now that I've read what you wrote about Fredersdorf, I think I could take a stab at her Fredersdorf prompt, if you edited and otherwise helped me out with historical stuff and also if you don't mind it being way more about music than something you would write.
mildred: YES GOD YES ~~and also oh you sweet summer child thinking you know enough to write this~~. [Mildred was far FAR nicer than this in real life.] For starters, here are 3500 words [really!] of things I know for a fact you don't know about Fredersdorf.
me: ...I was clearly overoptimistic. But I can work with this. Um, also, all the creativity-generating bits of my brain are already being used for my assignment, so can you also come up with an idea for the fic and also answer all my historical questions?
mildred: Sure! While I'm thinking about this, have 2k more words of historical grounding! Ok, and here are some ideas too. In fact, here's a whole plot for you!
me: Great! *writes 4k words of the plot*
mildred and me, more-or-less in unison: You did all the hard parts!

Then mildred fixed all my extensive historical errors and was fortunately able in between various medical woes to add various parts like the entire Wilhelmine subtheme and the entire last scene, and we deleted some of my words, and then I wrote some more paragraphs about music at her request and edited some of her stuff. I estimate that I probably ended up writing ~4.5k of the final fic, and mildred ended up writing ~ 2k of it (does that sound about right?) Of course that does not count the... I have no idea how much historical consultantcy stuff mildred ended up writing in the end, but I imagine it was significantly upwards of 10k :P And of course she wrote the detailed endnotes :D It also does not count all the words written in comments to the google document where we argued things like that Fredersdorf should be more zen than mildred wanted to write him and less zen than I wanted to write him :)

Although mildred and I mostly agreed on things, I had final veto power (and I did wield it a couple of times), so any remaining problems should be thought of as mine :) I'm very curious, though, as to how evident the collaboration was, and how evident the seams were, as I think mildred and I have very different writing styles, but it went through enough editing passes and discussion that I suspect much of the differences got at least somewhat smoothed out?

Counterpoint for Two Flutes

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From:

selenak

University students? Verrrrrry unlikely, I instinctively say, because according to all I've read so far, Fredersdorf's background was poor. If you wanted to study at a university, your parents had to pay for you all the way, apartment, tutors, the university itself, for everything, including your books. Scholarships weren't an option unless you had already a specific patron willing to pay for you. A little more than half a century later, when Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm go to grammar school and then to the university, they get by through a mixture of their aunt, who is a serving woman (not lady-in-waiting) to the Princess Elector of Hessen-Kassel, paying part of their fees and being so bright that some of the professors are willing to basically give them some credit. But they have three younger brothers, and by the time they are old enough to go the university, it's a choice between books for Jacob & Wilhelm or letting their younger brothers study as well. Younger bros are okay, not bad, but also not extraordinary. Younger brothers do not get to study; Jacob and Wilhelm get to continue to buy books. (Their father died when Jacob was 8, he was nominal head of the family since then, and their mother died when he was not yet twenty; he was defnitely head of the family then.) The point being - I really don't see how Fredersdorf's parents would have been able to afford university for him. Incidentally, I looked up the Lehndorff diary entry on meeting him which we had once quoted when we barely knew who Lehndorff was, and he, too, says Fredersdorf had had zilch education as a youth. (He doesn't say this as a put down but impressed that Fredersdorf was able to educate himself subsequently.) Now Lehndorff knew Fredersdorf only from afar and obviously was a toddler when he and Fritz met, but he's writing when Fredersdorf is still alive. And to refresh our collective memories, what he writes is this, on October 25th, 1757:

I make only one more visit, to the famous Fredersdorf, who under the title of "valet to the King" has played the role of prime minister for so long. For if anyone deserves this title, he does. At least he enjoyed such renown in the world that I have often seen him surrounded by knights and excellencies who made pretty deep bows to him, and his antechambre was often filled with state ministers and great lords. As far as I was concerned, I never had the cowardice to flatter him, nor did I seek him out except for now, when he no longer is connected to his majesty. His ill health, his jealousy of the famous Glasow, his riches and especially his desire for a quiet life have caused him to beg the King long enough so that the King allowed him to resign his positions. For this man basically filled out all the court offices. He supervised all the buildings, the King's accounts and treasure, all the staff, in short, after the King he was the only one who ruled, and often did so somewhat despotically. He is currently even more sick, the hemmorhoides have nearly devoured him. It is not a little amazing that a common man from the most backward Pommarania without any education could aquire such decency, grace of conduct and quickness of mind. A very pretty face aided him and was the beginning of his fortune, and through his intelligence, he managed to keep and defend such a difficult position as his. Most of all, though, I admire that he was able to withdraw in time, which is such a delicate matter for men who have a position equal to that of a beautiful woman when she notices her looks are fading. I remain with him until 11 in the evening and then return to the house of Frau V. Ingersleben, where I am lodging.

From:

cahn

That makes sense! -- could it be possible that he was in the regiment but playing with a student group as "filling in" their ensemble? Eh, though, occam's razor would suggest that it is simpler that Preuss-without-sources is wrong?

His ill health, his jealousy of the famous Glasow, his riches and especially his desire for a quiet life have caused him to beg the King long enough so that the King allowed him to resign his positions.

I mean. This right here, I am not believing ANY charges of embezzlement until one explains to me how Lehndorff can write this :P

Most of all, though, I admire that he was able to withdraw in time, which is such a delicate matter for men who have a position equal to that of a beautiful woman when she notices her looks are fading.

I had forgotten about this! (Though of course I remembered when I read it again.) Lehndorff, burn :D (In general I think it's a neat word-portrait, though -- Lehndorff really does have a way with drawing these thumbnail sketches of people.)

From:

selenak

Eh, though, occam's razor would suggest that it is simpler that Preuss-without-sources is wrong?

That's what I'm thinking.

I am not believing ANY charges of embezzlement until one explains to me how Lehndorff can write this

I suppose it's technically possible that it was hushed up so well because of Fredersdorf's position and the embarrassment to Fritz. But then Lehndorff has heard any number of embarrasing-to-Fritz stories. He's heard about Glasow, for starters, when Glasow falls from grace. He knows the Marwitz tale. (Which, granted, as Heinrich's friend he has a great source for, but the Marwitz entry gave me the impression that Lehndorff might actually originally have learned the tale from Marwitz himself.) When the Voltaire-Maupertuis debacle goes down, he notes the various stages - without any intimate details, of course, but he's alert enough to know about each step despite not being a member of the academy. And years later, when Elisabeth the first wife of future FW2 has her scandal, the shocked Lehndorff notes down all the rumors, even outrageous (and false) ones like her wanting to poison future FW2 to rule with a lover. And inofficial Prime Minister Fredersdorf is the only one about whose resignation there's no gossip other than "he was sick, he was exhausted, he wanted to enjoy the private life" plus "he was jealous of Glasow" (which as far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, Lehndorff is the only one to report? There's not even a little rumor that it might have been for financial reasons? At a court where most of the nobles would have been only too delighted to say "see, just proves you can't trust commoner upstarts"?

...maybe not impossible, but really really unlikely.

Incidentally, re: Fredersdorf was jealous of Glasow and "fading looks" - do we think Lehndorff is onto something there, or is he projecting (since there's that earlier entry about Fritz' incognito trip to the Netherlands and how he'd have loved to come along at the King's side (like Glasow), or at least to meet the King there (like Catt))? Having read all those letters from Fritz to Fredersdorf and how affectionate they sound till the end of them, I'm tempted to say no, Fritz might have had a soft spot for the pretty (especially when combined with the witty) but Fredersdorf knew that emotionally, Fritz would not trade him in just for aging. Then again, as Mildred pointed out, emotions (and jealousies) aren't logical. Of special interest - which came first, Fredersdorf's marriage plans or Fritz showing an interest in Glasow? Because there might be an answer.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

do we think Lehndorff is onto something there, or is he projecting

I honestly think he's projecting, between the letters being affectionate right up to the end, as you say, and also just how *long* Fredersdorf had been sick and unable to accompany Fritz on his journeys. I also gathered from Preuss, but could be wrong, that there was another batman in between Fredersdorf and Glasow. I would need to read more closely, but I think the sequence may have been "Fredersdorf got sick, someone named Anderson fell out of favor, Glasow got his turn."

Then again, as Mildred pointed out, emotions (and jealousies) aren't logical.

They're not, but they're often consistent, and if Fredersdorf didn't care about Marwitz or any of the other witty pretties Fritz collected, why would he step down for Glasow? I don't think Glasow was *that* special.

I vote for Lehndorff projecting.

Of special interest - which came first, Fredersdorf's marriage plans or Fritz showing an interest in Glasow?

I would need to check. My guess is Fredersdorf's marriage plans, but I could be wrong.

From:

selenak

Considering Fredersdorf's marriage plans are official in December 1752 (when Lehndorff spots his fiancee at a social gathering and also already knows Fritz is going to give her 5000 Taler as a wedding present), though the marriage itself doesn't take place until one year later, while Glasow doesn't show up in Lehndorff's diaries until the 1755 Fritz trip to the Netherlands, I'm thinking you're right. Also about the projecting.

BTW, going back to both German and English wiki for Fredersdorf to check for the marriage date, I have to go wtf again at the utter lack of source citation for the "dismissed for embezzling/died broken hearted about his lost honor", but the entries at least mention that Fredersdorf's bedroom in Sanssouci was directly next to Fritz', is intact and can be visited today. So you must have seen it when you were there, unconsciously?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

So you must have seen it when you were there, unconsciously?

So, as I recall, they started us at the outside of the library and didn't let us into the servants' wings, just told us that they were there, and moved us through the main part of the palace. So I don't think I *have* seen it, something I have been lamenting ever since I read that in Wiki, with a much better idea now of who Fredersdorf is. *Seriously*, I need to go back now that I've had all these fruitful discussions with you and

cahn!

For example, I must have seen Voltaire's room, but while I knew that Voltaire had come to stay with Fritz, and that they had a forty-year correspondence but a major explosion when they tried to live together, I certainly did not know all the things we know now, like how Fritz had the room redecorated after he left!

I have to go wtf again at the utter lack of source citation

I'll add a "citation needed" to English wiki if you'll add one to German wiki. My unwillingness to dirty my hands with the mess that is Wikipedia does occasionally bend enough to allow me to add a "citation needed." (Ha, I just checked one I added about a year and a half ago, and the unsubstantiated claim has disappeared from the page. Victory!)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

So you must have seen it when you were there, unconsciously?

I checked with

iberiandoctor, on Discord, and she says she doesn't remember seeing it either! I wonder if you have to go at a specific time, or if it's one of those rooms like the library where you can technically see it but not enter it, and they don't draw attention to it because at the start of the tour everyone's busy lined up at the library door trying to peer through the window, and nobody notices that Fredersdorf's room is off to the left or whatever. But I'm reasonably sure the tour started at the library and went to the bedroom/study, and if you could see any adjacent rooms, I wasn't looking at them.

From:

cahn

Just from what I know about Fredersdorf and Lehndorff, I'm also totally voting for projection! <3 Could also have been projection from someone else -- like, I could totally imagine some random noble who was jealous of Glasow saying to Lehndorff that it might have been a thing, and Lehndorff going "oh, yeah, makes perfect sense!" and writing it down.

But, yeah, sick and tired and about to get ~~a nurse, really Fritz~~ married, I don't think jealousy would even have occurred to him.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

That makes sense! -- could it be possible that he was in the regiment but playing with a student group as "filling in" their ensemble?

I was going to say, I wonder if the university students performed and Fredersdorf, who was in the local regiment, was associated with them in some way. Like, is it at all possible that he gave flute lessons to the local students? We know the Prussian army was notable for allowing its members to earn some money on the side, and that a lot of soldiers took advantage of this. And we know Fredersdorf's work ethic.

At any rate, no one says that Fredersdorf *was* a student, just that the students performed for Fritz and that may have been the occasion on which Fritz met Fredersdorf. Filling in or otherwise being associated with them makes as much sense to me as anything.

From:

cahn

Ohhhh, Fredersdorf teaching! Yep, I should have thought of that myself (I think I just didn't because in the fic we had his flute skill not being quite super awesome at the time), and I would totally buy that. I mean, I don't know how Prussian regiments etc. worked (although it sounds like from what you're saying that it would totally work), but I do know how music people work, and all the music-career people I know basically take students on the side to earn a little extra money :P

From:

mildred_of_midgard

we had his flute skill not being quite super awesome at the time

Well, what I'm thinking is that we had him not being virtuosic yet, but I'm not sure you need to be a virtuoso to teach some students who are presumably doing this in their spare time. (I imagine you don't.) Furthermore, I don't know about music, but in general, more important than your own skill level is your communication and interpersonal abilities. You need to have enough skill to know what you're talking about, but you don't need to be Johann Joachim Quantz.

So I absolutely buy Fredersdorf, who might have had significant interpersonal skills, as a good teacher of university students who wanted to do some flute-playing while studying law or whatever.

I don't know how Prussian regiments etc. worked (although it sounds like from what you're saying that it would totally work)

How Prussian regiments worked is that like most of Europe, they paid soldiers very little, but in peacetime, if they weren't on drill, which didn't occupy much of the day, soldiers were welcome to take up whatever civilian jobs they could find in the local town. And Prussian soldiers took huge advantage of this. Many other armies also underpaid and didn't allow side jobs, which sucked.

So I vote for: Fredersdorf teaches university students at the town his regiment is stationed in; Crown Prince comes to town; somebody decides to put on a performance; because it's the Crown Prince they want the best possible performance; they get the guy who's really good to come join them for the performance; Fritz is impressed and immediately steals guy who's really good, much to the students' chagrin. :P And the rest is history!

From:

cahn

Very true! Especially if Fredersdorf had been taught by decent teachers himself. (I am quite comfortable teaching piano to a beginner, even though I never got to virtuoso level in it.)

Fritz is impressed and immediately steals guy who's really good, much to the students' chagrin.

Well, I mean, even if he did come to Fritz every day, what with all his exports lessons or whatever I think Fredersorf would have enough time to still teach some on the side :)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yes, but he was moved to a different town to be with Fritz! The university in question was at Frankfurt an der Oder, and Fritz was at Küstrin, some 30 km north! This is why I kept emphasizing in the fic that Fredersdorf was new to town, didn't know all the stories the locals did, etc.

So even if Fredersdorf finds new students (and Küstrin is not a university town, but it does have nobles and well-to-do burghers who might want music lessons) to earn income from, his old students are still going to miss him!

From:

cahn

Oh, lol, right! ~~clearly I need to write more fic about Fredersdorf in order to retain this stuff~~ Wow, though, I wonder what Fredersdorf thought about that!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Me too! The things we don't know for sure (or at least I don't, because I've seen contradictory sources and also sources stating we don't know) are: 1) did Fritz actually meet Fredersdorf and request him by name, or did Schwerin surprise him with Fredersdorf when he found out he wanted someone to play flute for him? 2) How enthusiastic or even involved in the decision was Fredersdorf? Obviously he came to care about Fritz eventually, but was it a case of "Yes, please, I'd love to go play for the Crown Prince I've never met, awesome job prospects there," "Yes, please, I'd love to go play for the Crown Prince who seems awesome in person," or "Um, I guess I live in Küstrin now, better make the best of it and try not to get my head chopped off"?

~~clearly I need to write more fic about Fredersdorf in order to retain this stuff~~

No shortage of co-authoring opportunities, just saying!

From:

selenak

Imagine me cheerleading you both on to further Fredersdorf fictional exploration! Since you both covered „getting to know you“ so beautifully, how about „meet the (insane) family“? I mean, it‘s one thing to know about FW‘s Katte and Küstrin orders at a distance, and another to be exposed to the joys of Hohenzollern homelife, as he was bound to be once he was Fritz‘ valet. For maximum early family disaster, how about Wilhelmine‘s first visit back home (when FW didn‘t allow Fritz to come until nearly the very end of it and proceeded to give Bayreuth Friedrich the Fritz treatment of forced drink and rants, and SD was still angry with her for having married the guy in the first place)?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ha. I was thinking curtain fic+hurt/comfort when they first move into Rheinsberg, but the family soap opera definitely has its possibilities...

:D

From:

selenak

Oh, moving into Rheinsberg curtain fic sounds adorable! If you manage to work in the silly legend Fritz keeps mentioning in his letters to Voltaire and others about it being founded by Remus (as in twin of Romulus), and they first learn about it, even better.

But I still want my "How I survived my first Christmas at the Hohenzollerns" tale, too. ;)

Re: Fredersdorf gossipy sensationalism

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2020-01-08 11:09 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

cahn

...okay, uh, I know I should know this, but both of you remind me where I would go to find out more about this visit? Is this in Wilhelmine's memoirs?

And was this literally at Christmas? (Or thereabouts?)

/asking for a "friend"

From:

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2020-01-12 10:23 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, does it make any more sense that I had him a little less zen at the prospect of failing? It's not just an hour in the afternoon that he'd have free to do something else if he stopped visiting the Prince, but he actually relocated for this gig.

From:

cahn

It does! though I would have expected more thinking about the fact he'd had to relocate! Somehow this totally went right past me at the time, lol, which is why I didn't put anything like that in the fic :) (And indeed I wouldn't have had that whole exchange about oboe vs. flute, as presumably he would have known it was flute unless there was some bureaucratic thing where no one mentioned it to him... which... of course could have been the case :) )

My headcanon, now that you have brought this up, is that he was taken aback by suddenly having to relocate, and with some trepidation as to being involved with ~~crazy Hohenzollern~~ royalty at all, but also ~~zen~~ excited and interested by the prospect, and particularly excited he got to play flute :)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

It's totally my fault for not being more clear. What happened was that I was debating whether to bring this story up because it's unclear whether it happened, and also because I was running low on energy after all the write-ups I'd already done. And just when I was about to share this account and the uncertainties with you, you sent me that first draft with a different account of how they met, and I went, "...Sure! It could have happened like that." But I failed to make it clear that, whether or not he and Fritz met in Frankfurt an der Oder, my sources are pretty consistent about having him be from there, so he must have relocated.

Okay, looking back, what I said in the initial write-up was "He plays the oboe in the regiment at a town not far from Küstrin. Fritz somehow gets permission for him to come visit him." I threw a lot of information at you at a time when you were kind of whelmed, and some was bound to fall through the cracks. Anyway! I think it all worked out and what we ended up with was plausible enough. We also didn't spell out to the reader that he'd relocated specifically for this job, just that he was newly arrived in town, so nobody just reading this fic is going to wonder why he's worrying so much about Fritz and not enough about how this affects him. :D

(And indeed I wouldn't have had that whole exchange about oboe vs. flute, as presumably he would have known it was flute unless there was some bureaucratic thing where no one mentioned it to him... which... of course could have been the case :) )

I wouldn't have put it in myself, but I left it in without comment, for two reasons:

1) It allowed us to introduce to the reader the historical fact that he played the oboe at work and the flute for pleasure.
2) It's not implausible that the instructions weren't 100% clear, especially if Fritz hadn't met him before the relocation (which is the scenario our fic uses) but just said "someone find me a good flutist". In fact, Schwerin may not have been entirely sure that Fritz *didn't* also want him to play oboe; we know Fritz would play more than one instrument, especially when he was young and had the time, and maybe Fritz would have been delighted to hear his new musician play oboe as well.

Furthermore, I realize the modern US military doesn't translate perfectly to the Prussian army, but one thing that's historically been prized in a lot of armies and never more than the Prussian army is mindless obedience. Your CO says you're relocating; you're relocating. Maybe Fredersdorf got a say in it; maybe he didn't.

When we were writing this and I was thinking of Fredersdorf's relocation, I was reminded of the time my family was stationed with my dad in Japan. His tour of duty there was up, and the movers were carrying our stuff out the door when my dad got a phone call from his CO.

CO: Hey, Sergeant B, you sitting down? You might want to sit down for this.
Dad: Okay...
CO: You know how we told you you were moving to Kansas? We changed our minds.
Dad: *watches the movers carry stuff out the door, wonders if he's going to have to tell them to bring it back*
Dad: Okay.
CO: You're going to New Mexico instead.
Dad: Okay!

So, it ended up not being a huge difference, but it could easily have been. So I keep having this image of Fredersdorf being told, "Pack your stuff, you're moving to Küstrin tomorrow," and possibly not even being told why until he arrived.

It's quite possible he had already met Fritz when Fritz was passing through his town and knew what was up and was excited about somebody wanting him for his flute! But it's also possible he was like, "...Okay. Guess I'll find out when I get there."

Also, the way I was envisioning it, Fredersdorf was specifically told to bring his flute to play for the Prince. Then he shows up and the Prince is assuming that he plays the flute for the army, and that's when Fredersdorf realizes half the message got garbled, and he doesn't know which half. Did Fritz want the flute or did he want the instrument Fredersdorf was most proficient in? So I think it makes sense that he has the flute and no oboe with him, but then has a brief freakout (yes, I know, I had him freaking out here and you toned it down to be more zen :P) that maybe he brought the wrong one to his first day on the job. But he's in luck, because Fritz loves the flute more than most things in the world. <3

/another excerpt from the "Making of" on the Special Edition DVD. ;)

From:

selenak

Yay Special Edition DVD! As a thanks, have the flute itself, from the Prussian Museums website:

cahn

3) we were already writing way too many words dissecting various bits of the fic, lol

Yeah, sorry! Next time hopefully I will be better about *actually reading* all the historical consultant words :P