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cahnIn the last several months, as anyone who reads this DW knows, mildred_of_midgard and selenak and I have been part of this quite frankly amazing Frederick the Great fandom, and I sort of assumed that the two people in this fandom who actually knew anything, mildred and selenak, were going to write fics for Yuletide, and I (who know nothing except what they've told me in the last several months) was going to awesomely enjoy reading them. In fact, mildred wrote a Fredersdorf fic for selenak's prompt which I betaed, but then mildred's medical issues got bad enough to interfere with her writing fic (making the beta edits would have involved a substantial amount of rewrite), and she wrote a post lamenting she wasn't going to be able to produce any yuletide fic. Meanwhile, I had two fics that I was pretty sure were from selenak, and I thought it would be a shame for her to write us fic and for her not to get any :(
So then mildred and I had this (very paraphrased) conversation (mildred_of_midgard has her own account here, and she has promised to reproduce the actual conversation in comments to this post):
me: You know, we should really write something for selenak! Now that I've read what you wrote about Fredersdorf, I think I could take a stab at her Fredersdorf prompt, if you edited and otherwise helped me out with historical stuff and also if you don't mind it being way more about music than something you would write.
mildred: YES GOD YESand also oh you sweet summer child thinking you know enough to write this. [Mildred was far FAR nicer than this in real life.] For starters, here are 3500 words [really!] of things I know for a fact you don't know about Fredersdorf.
me: ...I was clearly overoptimistic. But I can work with this. Um, also, all the creativity-generating bits of my brain are already being used for my assignment, so can you also come up with an idea for the fic and also answer all my historical questions?
mildred: Sure! While I'm thinking about this, have 2k more words of historical grounding! Ok, and here are some ideas too. In fact, here's a whole plot for you!
me: Great! *writes 4k words of the plot*
mildred and me, more-or-less in unison: You did all the hard parts!
Then mildred fixed all my extensive historical errors and was fortunately able in between various medical woes to add various parts like the entire Wilhelmine subtheme and the entire last scene, and we deleted some of my words, and then I wrote some more paragraphs about music at her request and edited some of her stuff. I estimate that I probably ended up writing ~4.5k of the final fic, and mildred ended up writing ~ 2k of it (does that sound about right?) Of course that does not count the... I have no idea how much historical consultantcy stuff mildred ended up writing in the end, but I imagine it was significantly upwards of 10k :P And of course she wrote the detailed endnotes :D It also does not count all the words written in comments to the google document where we argued things like that Fredersdorf should be more zen than mildred wanted to write him and less zen than I wanted to write him :)
Although mildred and I mostly agreed on things, I had final veto power (and I did wield it a couple of times), so any remaining problems should be thought of as mine :) I'm very curious, though, as to how evident the collaboration was, and how evident the seams were, as I think mildred and I have very different writing styles, but it went through enough editing passes and discussion that I suspect much of the differences got at least somewhat smoothed out?
Counterpoint for Two Flutes
mildred_of_midgard and selenak and I have been part of this quite frankly amazing Frederick the Great fandom, and I sort of assumed that the two people in this fandom who actually knew anything, mildred and selenak, were going to write fics for Yuletide, and I (who know nothing except what they've told me in the last several months) was going to awesomely enjoy reading them. In fact, mildred wrote a Fredersdorf fic for selenak's prompt which I betaed, but then mildred's medical issues got bad enough to interfere with her writing fic (making the beta edits would have involved a substantial amount of rewrite), and she wrote a post lamenting she wasn't going to be able to produce any yuletide fic. Meanwhile, I had two fics that I was pretty sure were from selenak, and I thought it would be a shame for her to write us fic and for her not to get any :(So then mildred and I had this (very paraphrased) conversation (
mildred_of_midgard has her own account here, and she has promised to reproduce the actual conversation in comments to this post):me: You know, we should really write something for selenak! Now that I've read what you wrote about Fredersdorf, I think I could take a stab at her Fredersdorf prompt, if you edited and otherwise helped me out with historical stuff and also if you don't mind it being way more about music than something you would write.
mildred: YES GOD YES
me: ...I was clearly overoptimistic. But I can work with this. Um, also, all the creativity-generating bits of my brain are already being used for my assignment, so can you also come up with an idea for the fic and also answer all my historical questions?
mildred: Sure! While I'm thinking about this, have 2k more words of historical grounding! Ok, and here are some ideas too. In fact, here's a whole plot for you!
me: Great! *writes 4k words of the plot*
mildred and me, more-or-less in unison: You did all the hard parts!
Then mildred fixed all my extensive historical errors and was fortunately able in between various medical woes to add various parts like the entire Wilhelmine subtheme and the entire last scene, and we deleted some of my words, and then I wrote some more paragraphs about music at her request and edited some of her stuff. I estimate that I probably ended up writing ~4.5k of the final fic, and mildred ended up writing ~ 2k of it (does that sound about right?) Of course that does not count the... I have no idea how much historical consultantcy stuff mildred ended up writing in the end, but I imagine it was significantly upwards of 10k :P And of course she wrote the detailed endnotes :D It also does not count all the words written in comments to the google document where we argued things like that Fredersdorf should be more zen than mildred wanted to write him and less zen than I wanted to write him :)
Although mildred and I mostly agreed on things, I had final veto power (and I did wield it a couple of times), so any remaining problems should be thought of as mine :) I'm very curious, though, as to how evident the collaboration was, and how evident the seams were, as I think mildred and I have very different writing styles, but it went through enough editing passes and discussion that I suspect much of the differences got at least somewhat smoothed out?
Counterpoint for Two Flutes
Re: The emails
Date: 2020-01-01 05:02 pm (UTC)Sent: Dec 6
Riiight. OK, that's fine, it just means he needs to be a little more circuitous about what he writes to his mom than I was envisioning. Like, I have in there that he tells his mom how terrible it is that Fritz hadn't gotten to play any music, and implied that he tells her that he's letting Fritz play the flute which I think he's not technically allowed to do. So, maybe not with that. I don't think it's necessary, he can send mail about "I'm playing the flute for the Prince [which at this point is legal] and he's really great and I know you would love him mom" without going into risky detail.
Hmm, can Fredersdorf send home money? Would that be just a super bad idea, lol. Probably he just has to go home for that, eh?
I also have his mom sending him a care package (with the coat in it), is that a bad idea? (Again not necessary, he can figure out the coat some other way.)
Re: The emails
Date: 2020-01-01 05:02 pm (UTC)Sent: Dec 6
Yeah, I would keep illicit behavior out. It's one thing to take a risk on behalf of your beloved prince by smuggling his letters out; it's another to risk him in your own letters.
Can Fredersdorf send home money. I should know this but don't! Searching through my book, I can see a few relevant facts (most of which I had highlighted when reading and promptly forgot, haha):
1) The Prussian army was actually better organized than most (well, duh), and issued new uniforms annually (which would include the Prussian blue coat), rather than every few years like the more chaotic armies I was thinking of.
2) Army pay in Europe was extremely low, lagged behind civilian wages, and in many cases hadn't been seen cost-of-living updates for decades or even centuries. (That scares me.)
3) Prussian soldiers were allowed to work for profit in their spare time, unlike many other European soldiers. This was a total lifesaver.
Sending a coat in the mail: I'm not sure. I would be more useful if I had better research abilities at this time in my life, but all I have in this one book is soldiers risking terrible punishment for selling their shoes or shirt in order to pay the postage for a letter, and Frederick changing that mid-century, but the French not. Suggesting the mail might simply be that expensive in FW's time? I'm not certain if I would trust either coat or money to the mail at this time if I were a common soldier. I'm thinking it might be safer for us to not include something that might have been perfectly possible, than to include something that selenak will know immediately was definitely not possible.
Re: The emails
Date: 2020-01-01 05:02 pm (UTC)Sent: Dec 6
You know, it's gonna be great next month when we can ask her all these questions and she can tell us. :P
Re: The emails
Date: 2020-01-01 05:03 pm (UTC)Sent: Dec 7
YEP. I feel like I'm keeping secrets from her! Good secrets, as I would say to my kids. :D
One more question for tonight. Would Fredesdorf, when speaking of Katte to another commoner (obviously he's not going to talk about him to Fritz), call him "von Katte"? I feel like I want to do this but it may be because of early exposure to, like, The Sound of Music or something.
Re: The emails
Date: 2020-01-01 05:04 pm (UTC)Sent: Dec 7
I know! It feels weird that she talked about Lehndorff's editor explaining away all the crying without reference to me saying the same about Catt's 1917 editor. It took me a minute to remember that was in this email thread to you and she hadn't seen it! (It still feels wrong. :P)
Good question. I've often wondered how often people used the 'von' in casual speech. All my written sources by nobility and royalty refer to him simply as "Katte." Glancing through some of Fredersdorf's letters, in writing, to Fritz, he seems to be pretty darn chatty when referring to people who aren't royalty. French people occasionally get a Monsieur or Madame, but often just a last name, and non-French "von X" people are just "X" as far as I can tell.
I reserve the right to change my mind, but based on that cursory glance, I would say the evidence confirms my first instinct: "Lieutenant Katte" for the first mention, "Katte" afterward.
I've actually been surprised in this fandom how rarely my primary sources use the "von". Though Lehndorff is pretty consistent about "Frau v. Katte." Maybe it's different for women. If this were nineteenth or early twentieth century England, I would absolutely expect the lower classes to refer to their social superior as "Mister Last Name" and the upper classes to refer to the same guy by "Last Name", so it surprises me a bit to see Fredersdorf writing about the nobility to Fritz the same way everyone else does. But there's also a little ditty Fontane reports that children used to sing about the Kattes, and it uses "Ritter Katt", not "von Katt." ("Katt" was a very common, maybe more common, spelling of the name in our 18th century sources.) So I think that tends to confirm everyone using "Katte", even the commoners.
Re: The emails
Date: 2020-01-01 05:04 pm (UTC)Sent: Dec 7
MWAHAHAHA. I wasn't intending to sneak this question [about using vs. omitting "von"] in there to selenak, but when I saw my opportunity, I had to take it. It helps that this is absolutely something I've been wondering for months, because of my own fic writing. :D
We'll see what she says.
Re: The emails
Date: 2020-01-01 05:05 pm (UTC)Sent: Dec 7
LOL. She is going to laugh so hard when she reads this correspondence.
(You guys are amazing. I can't keep up with you at all!)
Re: The emails
Date: 2020-01-01 05:05 pm (UTC)Sent: Dec 7
IKR?
I was just thinking, the sheer volume and speed of this fandom is helpful: we can ask pretty much anything, and none of it stands out as pointedly referring to a specific fic she requested for YT.
Volumes 2 and 3 should be on their way soon, and then she can feed us more of our daily installments of crackfic!
Re: The emails
Date: 2020-01-01 05:06 pm (UTC)Sent: Dec 8
I meant to add yesterday, and selenak seems to be confirming my impression today: after introducing Katte as "Lieutenant [von] Katte," Fredersdorf might also refer to him as "the lieutenant" in subsequent mentions in the conversation.
Watch me ask follow-up questions and make selenak research her own fic. :-P
Re: The emails
Date: 2020-01-01 05:06 pm (UTC)Sent: Dec 8
Okay, we have license to use the "von" or not use the "von"! It's interesting that her impressions match mine, as does her lack of certainty. There's just less data on the non-nobles, and of course writing =/= conversation.
I may or may not be cackling over the success of my cunning plan right now. :-D Wait until she sees this.
Re: The emails
Date: 2020-01-01 05:07 pm (UTC)Sent: Dec 8
And now she knows about Fredersdorf possibly smuggling letters! This may be the first time you've been ahead of her on a Fritz-related historical point. :D Good thing we're prepping her with the historical background to her fic, and not just making her beta it. *glee*
I hope your writing is going well! Looking forward to seeing the first draft.