Frederick the Great, discussion post 6
Dec. 2nd, 2019 02:27 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahn...I think we need another one (seriously, you guys, this is THE BEST) and I'd better make it now before I disappear into the wilds of music performance.
(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)
Frederick the Great masterpost
(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)
Frederick the Great masterpost
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-08 09:27 am (UTC)Impressions: when exactly was this one published? Because at some points (specifically footnote to antesemitic aside) I wondered whether The Worst Fanboys were already in power, and others I thought, nah, not yet, because the Editor spends considerable time ranting about how today psychonalysis is so in fashion and everything has to be sex related and bah, without once using the Nazi terminology "Jewish science" or any synonym thereof, which in a post 1933 published book one would expect to be the case. So I'm thinking - late 20s, early 30s, could that be?
Incidentally, while we're on the subject, while in the first 100 pages there's a "typical Jew" remark, just to make things even more complicated one of the Prussian spies in the Austrian camp is also code-named "The Jew" without actually being one (or so Editor claims). Not to be confused with Mr. Ephraim the banker in Berlin who gets the antisemitic remark later.
On to less depressing subjects. This Editor is so far the biggest fanboy editor of the lot. We're talking Peter III level fanboy-ism for Fritz here, and he's unabashedly open about this. The purpose of this entire publication isn't because we're interested in Fredersdorf, who cares about him, nah, it's all about Fritz, since these letters show his human side at its best, full of kindness and concern as rarely seen in the letters to the great ones, so this alone justifies the publication. It's the pure love of a father to his adopted son expressing itself here, mind you. (How old was Fritz when they met? 19?) Editor reminds us of the French saying "no man is a hero to his valet" and says these letters refute that, because they show Fritz while being busy being Frederick the Great also is a great human being to said valet. In an utterly fatherly fashion.
Before I get to more fanboying and partisanship, Editor does provide - though alas without naming the source, and regretfully noting it's an apocryphal tale without a definite source - a tidbit of information about Fritz and Fredersdorf at Küstrin which, if true, gives us one big reason why Fritz in the worst days of his life started to trust this newbie to his existence. Because supposedly Fredersdorf was the one who smuggled his letters to Wilhelmine (he did manage a few, including the one she quotes in her memoirs) and hers to him in (which he had to destroy at once post reading because FW). If Fredersdorf risked letter smuggling, for which if caught FW might have had his head in a non-metaphorical fashion, that makes for a powerful demonstration of loyalty/compassion right then and there.
Back to the Editor - who because the actual letters are always brief talks a lot and for all my snark provides always useful context: Silesia 1? "The young eagle soars." Silesia 2? Shame that woman just can't get over it, but all hail Fritz, saviour of the fatherland from those unseemly Austrian designs to steal what he's rightfully kidnapped. Czarina Elizabeth starts out pro Prussia and becomes anti Prussia? All because she's pudding in the hands of her lover(s). Can't be because Fritz is being Fritz and insulting female rulers left right and center, nah, or for general political reasons. Everyone is just FORCING military action on our glorious hero, keeping him from the wonderful philosophical life he wants to lead.
Enstrangement from Wilhelmine? All her fault. How on earth she could hurt her brother so by meeting with
the Queen of HungaryYOUR FRIENDMaria Theresia who was at that time having dark designs on our hero's downfall is beyond Editor. Also, he thinks the memoirs in their depiction of a steadfast enstrangement between Wilhelmine and Fritz post Küstrin prove Wilhelmine was a case for a psychiatrist (they are okay for overemotional women, psychiatrists, just not when deducing same sex desires in manly men) and refuted by the actual correspondance between the siblings.Sidenote here: naturally Wilhelmine would have needed therapy. (Like everyone in that family, big time.) And I do think that the depiction of Fritz getting colder and colder towards her through the 1730s with the additional coldness post ascending to the throne just a logical conclusion hails directly from the memoirs being written at a time when they're enstranged, and, like her operas, are to some degree venting and self therapy, not literal truth. In this case, Wilhelmine is trying to tell herself "well, he doesn't love me anymore, get used to it, self, and clearly this isn't a new development, should have seen the signs". Which, yes, is refuted by the actual letters they exchanged through the 1730s. (And their relationship post reconciliation.) But what this reminds me very much of is Lehndorff going "well, it's clear now Heinrich doesn't love me anymore, he's so COLD towards me, clearly this has been going on for a while, see if I care!" / "My dear Prince has invited me/written to me/ I Heart Heinrich!!!". And Lehndorff's editor is notably lacking in comments like "hysterical woman is being hysterical, amirite?"
The one area where Editor actually dares to be somewhat Fritz critical is in his behavior towards EC. There, he also sets the context - the enforced marriage, which he calls "rape of a soul" (the soul being Fritze's) - but does express compassion towards EC and grants this was not in any way her fault, and that it was her misfortune to actually develop affection for Fritz. This all in a lengthy footnote/text to a letter where Fredersdorf tells Fritz that SD and Amalie are on their way to him with an entourage of 45 people, but that "her majesty humbly asks whether she is permitted to come as well, bringing 5". Yeah. That.
Editor does cite the traditional "Küstrin made Frederick Great" of Prussian historians, but, you will be pleased to learn, does not agree. He thinks Fritz becoming more mature and buddingly great in the 1730s is the result of him being in Rheinsberg surrounded by affection and intellectual challenge, friends who love and appreciate him and Dad far, far away. (Mostly.) Editor grants FW meant well but does not like him one bit.
Now, the letters: are mostly adorable, not least because of the informal rococo slang German. (Though Editor has my sympathy in his sigh about Fritz driving him mad by all the different spellings even of names, like the (female) singer Masi (who gets every variation possible, even "Mansey" on occasion.) There's so much about mutual health troubles that you wonder whetherh these two have ever been healthy, but then of course when they were healthy and at the same place at the same time, there was no reason to write. The letters also reflect the sheer variety of skills/departments Fredersdorf has - Fritz writes to him equally about managing musicians and actors (contracts of same, persuading La Gasparini that Fritz when hiring La Astura does not mean this as a disparagement to her, etc.), managing spies within the Austrian camp, changing decoding and cypher, anything regarding transport of equipment or travelling worriest, family worries (during Wilhelmine's visit, he notices she's sick, too, and worries about her), and loss of friends. When Keyserling dies, it's really crushing; we have far fewer letters from Fredersdorf, but one is about Keyserling's baby daughter who he assures Fritz already looks a bit like dad - Editor tells us Fritz kept being benevolently minded towards this daughter for his remaining life).
Re: all the health stuff, Editor apologizes this even includes bodily fluids or lack of same in the interest of historical fidelity. He points out Fritz keeps downplaying his own concerns and focuses on Fredersdorf's (who does the same), which is true. And the tenderness in all the many variations of "take care of yourself" is really striking. At the same time, the few preserved Fredersdorf letters to show the social difference keenly, in that Fredersdorf consistently keeps writing "Your Majesty" and "your servant" and rarely allows himself a bit of teasing back (though he does it, once in a sentence where he writes "and please please take your medicine, I'll kiss your feet once you recover"). (Fredersdorf's spelling, btw, isn't that much better, but then this was before Duden standardized German spelling in the 19th century, full stop.)
More linguistics: I found it interesting that Fritz when rendering French names in these letters spells them phonetically, not (as he knows how to do) in the correct French manner - so "Bische", not "Biche", for example. Also, for a famous Deist verging on Atheist, the "Gott bewahre dir" ("Gott keep you", and Fritz is using the wrong grammatical form - it should be "Gott bewahre dich") as a standard goodbye is noteworthy.
Oh, and: in one letter from the late second Silesian war, Fritz mentions "little Hendrich" (sic) being with him. Editor informs us this is 19 years old Heinrich. Since otherwise in the fraternal correspondance it's Henri all the way, this makes me wonder: does Fritz write "Heinrich" or rather "Hendrich" because otherwise Fredersdorf wouldn't know whom he meant, or because he thinks of him in the German variation of the name?
Neat trivia learned from the letters: in the late 40s, Franz Stephan sends some Hungarian wine to Fritz and his best wishes with the hope of renewing their "youthful friendship". Editor tells us that Franzl may or may not have meant that (after explaining about young FS of Lorraine passing through Prussia on his Grand Tour and being charmed by Fritz) but his wife sure didn't and for SOME reason kept on hating poor, poor Fritz.
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-08 07:56 pm (UTC)Oh, I thought I had mentioned this in our discussions, sorry. You got it, though: 1926. Good deduction, Sherlock!
We're talking Peter III level fanboy-ism for Fritz here, and he's unabashedly open about this.
Lol, I had picked up on this just from reading the first paragraph (and knowing the date).
It's the pure love of a father to his adopted son expressing itself here, mind you. (How old was Fritz when they met? 19?)
19. In prison, to boot. And Fredersdorf was 22. I am SO SURE that was a paternal relationship.
Because supposedly Fredersdorf was the one who smuggled his letters to Wilhelmine.
I had read that in a biography, and I guess I hadn't mentioned it. Since that bio didn't provide a source, it was probably this book. Thank you for clarifying that even this editor says it's apocryphal and (sadly) doesn't provide a source either.
I choose to believe it's true! Especially since that letter in Wilhelmine's memoirs predates Fredersdorf (not that we know for sure, but I'm not aware that anyone thinks they met before Katte's execution) *and* predates Fritz's pardon, so was far more dangerous, and I've seen that smuggling attributed to a random servant in the fortress. I can't remember where I saw that attribution--maybe Wilhelmine's memoirs.
So if random servant was willing to smuggle a letter at a more dangerous time, I'm not surprised if future ultra-loyal Fredersdorf was willing to smuggle letters at a less dangerous (but still dangerous) time.
Everyone is just FORCING military action on our glorious hero, keeping him from the wonderful philosophical life he wants to lead.
That is actually kind of interesting, given the time and place. Yes, Fritz is always the victim to these historians, but I more usually see the military life glorified and his desire to lead a different life downplayed.
He thinks Fritz becoming more mature and buddingly great in the 1730s is the result of him being in Rheinsberg surrounded by affection and intellectual challenge, friends who love and appreciate him and Dad far, far away.
Oh, wow! (I'm adding my comments as I read, so liveblogging my reaction to your summary here.) That explains the preceding paragraph. Editor! Given the rock bottom expectations I have of you, you've managed to exceed them.
Man. I'm with you on this, editor. I've always thought FW was holding Frederick the Great back. I maintain he's a much better general, and probably a better composer, and who knows what else, without FW's influence. (Mentally healthier goes without saying, but there is this pernicious belief that trauma can turn you into some kind of artistic genius, so...I would like to challenge that aspect as well.)
There's so much about mutual health troubles that you wonder whetherh these two have ever been healthy
Ha, I kind of did wonder that, from the Trier project, but yes, came to the conclusion that we have a very biased sample. Also, the second half of the book, which I will try to send, is set toward the end of Fredersdorf's life, when he's quite sick. Although, I think I've commented, tongue only half in cheek, that I'm surprised when *anyone* is healthy in the 18th century. Every time I grab a random Fritz letter to read, to practically any of his correspondents, he's either hoping someone gets better or relieved that they're on the mend.
one is about Keyserling's baby daughter who he assures Fritz already looks a bit like dad - Editor tells us Fritz kept being benevolently minded towards this daughter for his remaining life
Awww.
He points out Fritz keeps downplaying his own concerns and focuses on Fredersdorf's (who does the same), which is true. And the tenderness in all the many variations of "take care of yourself" is really striking.
Yes, this jumped out at me just from running through the letters in the Trier project. It's non-stop "Please be okay [implied or stated: I need you]" in different phrasings.
At the same time, the few preserved Fredersdorf letters to show the social difference keenly, in that Fredersdorf consistently keeps writing "Your Majesty" and "your servant" and rarely allows himself a bit of teasing back
Indeed, he's extremely formal in all the letters I've seen, but, it's worth noting that even Fritz is "Your Majesty"ing and third-personing his fellow monarchs in the various letters I've spot-checked. Yes, he's extra cautious in his early letters to Peter (I really want to read the rest, but they're not copy-pastable, so I have to read the French, so slow going), because so much is riding on it, but even after he starts "mon frère"ing him as he does to Louis, it's third person all the way as far as I can tell.
Still, the obvious "monarchs can Du/tu you but not vice versa" social difference is there.
(I really want to know now how Louis was addressing the Margrave of Brandenburg in his letters, assuming he didn't delegate all that. :P)
Also, for a famous Deist verging on Atheist, the "Gott bewahre dir" ("Gott keep you", and Fritz is using the wrong grammatical form - it should be "Gott bewahre dich") as a standard goodbye is noteworthy.
I don't speak German, but I admit I was wondering about that "dir". Thank you for confirming my intuition.
It is noteworthy, but so is the fact that Fritz does the same thing in French to a lot of other correspondents: "je prie Dieu qu'il vous ait en sa sainte et digne garde." Including Algarotti, whom I'm not sure what his religion was. The Church put him on the banned book list, and I have a biographer saying he and Fritz hit it off at Rheinsberg by mocking religion (which shocked EC), but also I have records of him attending Mass at Strasbourg when no one else in the group did. And the dissertation I read had nothing to say on the subject, because it didn't have to do with his networking techniques. So I'm not sure whether Fritz does it as a convention, or only with people who believe in God.
Oh, this is interesting. I was looking through Trier to see who else he does this too (they remind me that he does this to Voltaire periodically, which I had seen but forgotten), and the list is long, and then I saw the editor actually talks about the formula. They conclude that he does this when he's either having a secretary copy his letter (I guess the secretary presumably adds this formula) or even having them write the letter from an outline. Otherwise, Fritz writing his own letters will add his own affectionate or otherwise personal note at the end. And they say this is why Voltaire only gets this formula when Fritz is pissed off at him. Oooh. I wondered why it was only some Voltaire letters.
Yes, this is interesting, because this can't be the case with Fredersdorf, given the intimacy of these letters, the fact that we have facsimiles in Fritz's handwriting, and the fact that if he were having a secretary make a copy, the German would be a lot more grammatical. :P
So apparently he's just writing "Gott bewahre dir" to Fredersdorf to...express affection? I've always assumed that Fredersdorf was not a freethinker when they met, and always wondered how his thinking evolved in a predominantly but not exclusively freethinking court. He was obviously chill enough to not be FW on the subject, but I've never been sure how far and how long he kept his religious beliefs. I'm now leaning toward him keeping them, just as Catt and various others did, and Fritz being not only tolerant but evidently indulgent.
I'm glad I checked Trier more systematically!
does Fritz write "Heinrich" or rather "Hendrich" because otherwise Fredersdorf wouldn't know whom he meant, or because he thinks of him in the German variation of the name?
I would say it depends on how else he renders German names when writing German. It's quite possible he just renders German names in their German form when writing German, and in French when writing French. For example, he signs his own name Friedrich/Frch/Fch in German, and Frideric/Frederic/Federic in French. I assume just to be linguistically consistent.
in the late 40s, Franz Stephan sends some Hungarian wine to Fritz and his best wishes with the hope of renewing their "youthful friendship"
Oh, lol, this is the best. Poor, poor Fritz. So young, so innocent, so pitiful.
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-08 09:02 pm (UTC)19. In prison, to boot. And Fredersdorf was 22. I am SO SURE that was a paternal relationship
Mildred, he‘s Frederick the Great. Naturally, he knows how to be a father at age 19 to some 22 years old guy, even when he‘s just recovering from a complete emotional breakdown and the other guy is not.
If you and I were manly chaste Prussians instead of having our minds polluted with all that sex obsessed psychoanalysis, we‘d understand.
(Editor does not mention any homoerotic poetry, if you‘re wondering. Otoh he‘s with you on the doctor declaring Fritz was impotent due to STD as a young man, but he also thinks Wilhelmine invented the entire Orzelska episode because her memoirs are so unreliable and just her writing down fantasies and proving what a case for a psychotherapist she is. He thinks Fritz had het urges and probably did something as a young man but never ever thereafter, channelling it all into Prussia and stoic masculinity.)
I really want to know now how Louis was addressing the Margrave of Brandenburg in his letters, assuming he didn't delegate all that.
Clearly, Louis delegated corresponding with the Margrave of Brandenburg to the Marquise de Pompadour, who wrote „mon frere“ with extra glee.
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-08 09:36 pm (UTC)If you and I were manly chaste Prussians instead of having our minds polluted with all that sex obsessed psychoanalysis, we‘d understand.
aLOL. I understand, editor. I am not worthy of the great Frederick.
Clearly, Louis delegated corresponding with the Margrave of Brandenburg to the Marquise de Pompadour, who wrote „mon frere“ with extra glee.
Sounds about right!
Next hundred pages are on their way. Sheesh, I haven't even finished reading your write-up of the last chunk. Fast-moving fandom moves fast!
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-08 09:46 pm (UTC)Also still trying to get my hands on the remaining Lehndorff. Hopefully today.
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-09 04:46 am (UTC)But now we have our gracious German speaker summarizing and excerpting for our edification and enjoyment. <3
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-09 03:27 pm (UTC)Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-09 08:00 pm (UTC)What are you seeing on your end?
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-09 04:41 am (UTC)Ha. So remember when I summarized the different approaches historians have taken to explaining Fritz's sexuality? Our editor is evidently Historian 4:
Historian 4: Idk about any operation, but I promise you, dear readers, there was nothing "unnatural" about Fritz's sex drive, it was just "underdeveloped." It's MANLY to not be into women and only like waging war, k? If he wrote poetry at all, much less erotic poetry, you will not find any mention of it in my incredibly manly book.
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-08 09:58 pm (UTC)In my scanning of pages 200-300, a "Gott bewahre dich" jumped out at me. Then he goes right back to "dir". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-10 05:27 am (UTC)Wait, so given that Fritz thinks in French, does he think of himself as Frederic?
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-10 05:34 am (UTC)Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-14 08:22 am (UTC)"Der Thronfolger" lets Wilhelmine use "Fritz" when they talk to each other without anyone else present. Films that take place when he's already King usually go with "your majesty" even when there's a sibling around, though I noticed that in the one scene where after all the psychological power play they bare their souls to each other, Bach (J.S.) calls him Friedrich in this exchange that comes in their improvised jam session:
Bach: I regret my sons cannot see this.
Fritz (hurt): I am here.
Bach: Forgive me, your majesty. Friedrich. You would have been a wonderful son. You as well." (Subtitles here say "even you", making Bach sound insulting, which I assure is not the case in the original. The German phrase implies "you, like my sons".
Fritz (turning away): To be a wonderful son it would have required a wonderful father.
Bach: Don't believe that, your majesty. I thought I had been a model father, but what am I to my sons? A shadow. A gigantic shadow. If one could start again, I'd have been a wine merchant. But one can never begin again.
Fritz (still with his back to him): As long as I can remember, my father was only shouting orders. He told everyone I was a guttersnipe" - subtitles here say "sissy", which probably comes closer to FW's actual words, but the German dialogue says "Schmutzfink", which is a bird dirtying itself, hence my different choice of equivalent - "and that I walked on tiptoe and pulled idiotic faces." (Cahn, this is all from an actual FW letter to his son.) "I played the lute in secret to comfort myself. He'd get terribly angry. He spat in my soup and forced me to eat it. And to kiss his feet. My older sister, Wilhelmine, and I, we loved each other. He forced her to marry to separate her from me. From then on, I was alone. A hostile father, that is the worst thing there is.
Bach (who had listened and come closer throughout this monologue), now silently hugs him).
(End of scene, we then switch to Friedemann and Amalie having their nightly rendezvous in the stables)
Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-16 10:44 pm (UTC)Re: Fredersdorf letters
Date: 2019-12-10 05:25 am (UTC)Hee!
And Lehndorff's editor is notably lacking in comments like "hysterical woman is being hysterical, amirite?"
Lol, because I... do think of him as very emo when it comes to Heinrich, yes
but his wife sure didn't and for SOME reason kept on hating poor, poor Fritz.
AHAHAHA