Yeah, I feel like Fritz is in way over his head politically in this scenario. Something is going to have to give, and it's not going to be pretty. I *do* still wonder how much of his treatment of EC was due to his extreme bitterness over the marriage. But even without that, homosexual + committed rather than casual misogynist does not a good combination with a more strong-willed, politically influential wife make.
No matter if she'd come to loathe Fritz as a person, she'd have wanted heirs from her own body. And her father, who in fact outlived FW, would have insisted, too. (And considering Joseph's mission to fix his sister's sex life with Louis XVI in rl, you can bet his granddad would have been as intrusive when it came to his daughter and Fritz.)
Notoriously open secret gay/asexual Fritz goes through the motions of trying, makes a point of not ejaculating inside her? Plays it off as impotence/sexual hangups? He only has to get away with this for 7-10 years to get elected Emperor. This is the same guy, remember, who, when forced by Dad to go hunting, would write fake upbeat letters going, "Welp, I shot at the animal and missed. But I'm sure I'll have better luck next time!"
There's no way Maria Theresia would have gone for one of Fritz' siblings as heirs presumptative of the Habsburg dynasty. No matter if she'd come to loathe Fritz as a person, she'd have wanted heirs from her own body.
After ~10 years of the above, would she have gone for an annulment of a childless marriage and a marriage to brother Augustus Wilhelm? It's a variation on marrying a sister to AW to appease the Brunswicks. Assume Fritz has been elected Emperor at this time, is pretty clearly not having kids of his own or planning to remarry, is willing to leave her the prestige and nominal power of the titles of the Pragmatic Sanction, but is consolidating power in his own hands and politically sidelining his entire family. In a misogynistic world, with her sense of duty and a more ambitious husband than Franz Stefan, would MT have gone along with this? I don't know her personality well enough. Would the entire Austrian nobility have gone along with this or not been able to stop it?
It's a real stretch: I'm struggling to come up with *any* possible non-catastrophic outcome. Fritz does not play well with others, and MT does not take things lying down like EC, plus she comes with a whole family and country with opinions of their own.
The only other possible path that I can see to a less than catastrophic outcome is if EC got an especially raw deal from Fritz, and Amelia or MT or basically anyone who gave him an "out" from Dad before 1740 would have gotten better treatment, including maybe a willingness to make an effort to beget heirs once a month or something. I mean, when he was plumping for the British double marriage, should we imagine he was intending to completely avoid Amelia sexually even before he became king? I find that difficult to believe, or at least to assume without questioning.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: the way I read Fritz's personality, there is a world of difference between an idea that came out of his own head and one that was forced onto him, in terms of how he reacts. And if he decides he wants to be HRE because it's a way to get the upper hand over Dad, and he gets what he wants, then I'm guessing his brain decides to emphasize the way MT and he can bond over music and some literature, and he has some sex with her, at least in the early days. If FW forces him into this marriage because FW is a big fan of the Emperor, then Fritz's brain emphasizes how he despises the long-past-its-glory-days HRE and Catholics and women and possibly the thought of being shipped to Vienna as if *he* were the subordinate partner, and maximum disaster ensues with maximum speed.
The only "Catholic princess marries Protestant prince who is allowed to maintain his religion as part of the marriage deal" example I can currently think of is the most notoriously ill fated of them all - Margot de Valois/Henri de Navarre
Catherine of Braganza and Charles II come to mind, but Braganza != Habsburg, as you point out. And Charles at least had Catholic sympathies. Fritz...did not. I also imagine the Pope having nominal authority over Fritz would have gone over about as well as the Holy Roman Emperor having nominal authority over Fritz went over irl. "Lol wut? I barely took orders from my father when he was alive and locked me in prison, and you think you can tell me what to do from a distance? You and what army?"
Secondly: priorities. Where do they live, Prussia or Austria?
Totally trolling here: after their dads die, Fritz in Prussia, MT in Austria. That's far enough away to avoid the cooties, right? :PP
Once both fathers are dead, does Fritz actually get elected as Emperor or has he by then pissed off various other princes already and they go for the Wittelsbach guy anyway?
1730s Fritz? Sympathies for him personally are still running high, to the point where various European courts are lending/giving him money, he's not as despotic as in later years, and Prussia is starting to be taken seriously thanks to FW's army, which Fritz has inherited by the time of the election. My guess is he gets elected and everyone regrets it *later*. Assuming he's managed to pay enough lip service to Catholicism. If he has and he still doesn't get elected, my guess is that it takes him and MT less than 8 years to solve it in their favor. Which is of course the whole point of this scenario.
My question is, how much does young Fritz manage to piss off his *dad* in the 1730s, particularly if this marriage lands him in Austria? And what are the consequences of *that*?
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Re: Nomination coordination redux
Date: 2019-10-01 01:06 am (UTC)No matter if she'd come to loathe Fritz as a person, she'd have wanted heirs from her own body. And her father, who in fact outlived FW, would have insisted, too. (And considering Joseph's mission to fix his sister's sex life with Louis XVI in rl, you can bet his granddad would have been as intrusive when it came to his daughter and Fritz.)
Notoriously open secret gay/asexual Fritz goes through the motions of trying, makes a point of not ejaculating inside her? Plays it off as impotence/sexual hangups? He only has to get away with this for 7-10 years to get elected Emperor. This is the same guy, remember, who, when forced by Dad to go hunting, would write fake upbeat letters going, "Welp, I shot at the animal and missed. But I'm sure I'll have better luck next time!"
There's no way Maria Theresia would have gone for one of Fritz' siblings as heirs presumptative of the Habsburg dynasty. No matter if she'd come to loathe Fritz as a person, she'd have wanted heirs from her own body.
After ~10 years of the above, would she have gone for an annulment of a childless marriage and a marriage to brother Augustus Wilhelm? It's a variation on marrying a sister to AW to appease the Brunswicks. Assume Fritz has been elected Emperor at this time, is pretty clearly not having kids of his own or planning to remarry, is willing to leave her the prestige and nominal power of the titles of the Pragmatic Sanction, but is consolidating power in his own hands and politically sidelining his entire family. In a misogynistic world, with her sense of duty and a more ambitious husband than Franz Stefan, would MT have gone along with this? I don't know her personality well enough. Would the entire Austrian nobility have gone along with this or not been able to stop it?
It's a real stretch: I'm struggling to come up with *any* possible non-catastrophic outcome. Fritz does not play well with others, and MT does not take things lying down like EC, plus she comes with a whole family and country with opinions of their own.
The only other possible path that I can see to a less than catastrophic outcome is if EC got an especially raw deal from Fritz, and Amelia or MT or basically anyone who gave him an "out" from Dad before 1740 would have gotten better treatment, including maybe a willingness to make an effort to beget heirs once a month or something. I mean, when he was plumping for the British double marriage, should we imagine he was intending to completely avoid Amelia sexually even before he became king? I find that difficult to believe, or at least to assume without questioning.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: the way I read Fritz's personality, there is a world of difference between an idea that came out of his own head and one that was forced onto him, in terms of how he reacts. And if he decides he wants to be HRE because it's a way to get the upper hand over Dad, and he gets what he wants, then I'm guessing his brain decides to emphasize the way MT and he can bond over music and some literature, and he has some sex with her, at least in the early days. If FW forces him into this marriage because FW is a big fan of the Emperor, then Fritz's brain emphasizes how he despises the long-past-its-glory-days HRE and Catholics and women and possibly the thought of being shipped to Vienna as if *he* were the subordinate partner, and maximum disaster ensues with maximum speed.
The only "Catholic princess marries Protestant prince who is allowed to maintain his religion as part of the marriage deal" example I can currently think of is the most notoriously ill fated of them all - Margot de Valois/Henri de Navarre
Catherine of Braganza and Charles II come to mind, but Braganza != Habsburg, as you point out. And Charles at least had Catholic sympathies. Fritz...did not. I also imagine the Pope having nominal authority over Fritz would have gone over about as well as the Holy Roman Emperor having nominal authority over Fritz went over irl. "Lol wut? I barely took orders from my father when he was alive and locked me in prison, and you think you can tell me what to do from a distance? You and what army?"
Secondly: priorities. Where do they live, Prussia or Austria?
Totally trolling here: after their dads die, Fritz in Prussia, MT in Austria. That's far enough away to avoid the cooties, right? :PP
Once both fathers are dead, does Fritz actually get elected as Emperor or has he by then pissed off various other princes already and they go for the Wittelsbach guy anyway?
1730s Fritz? Sympathies for him personally are still running high, to the point where various European courts are lending/giving him money, he's not as despotic as in later years, and Prussia is starting to be taken seriously thanks to FW's army, which Fritz has inherited by the time of the election. My guess is he gets elected and everyone regrets it *later*. Assuming he's managed to pay enough lip service to Catholicism. If he has and he still doesn't get elected, my guess is that it takes him and MT less than 8 years to solve it in their favor. Which is of course the whole point of this scenario.
My question is, how much does young Fritz manage to piss off his *dad* in the 1730s, particularly if this marriage lands him in Austria? And what are the consequences of *that*?