ahahaha oh yes in Schiller Posa has this whole long soliloquy (which is apparently a hugely famous soliloquy if one is German) on being progressive and freethinking and on the side of Freedom and really skirting heresy if not actually being completely heretical. At one point he says something along the lines of "Chance... I mean God... brought me here!" and it's totally clear that he's an atheist who is just barely toeing the party line. (In the first draft of the opera that "Chance... God..." bit is kept, but in revision I think Verdi realized he'd changed Posa enough that it didn't quite fit anymore and he threw it out. Opera!Posa is still a freethinker, in the sense of being a big proponent of Freedom and daring to stand up to Philip and -- oh, here, I can't help but give you another clip, , it's only three minutes and will show you exactly the bit I'm talking about, and Furlanetto and Keenlyside are just brilliant together -- anyway, but I feel in the opera he comes out as much less fanatical/manipulative and more sort of "conventionally" honorable and loyal (and in a way that I'm a complete sucker for).
Yeah, the Philip+Posa dynamic seems to be wildly different from the Friedrich Wilhelm+Katte dynamic. I guess you can't copy your sources exactly, have to be creative somewhere. ;)
Hee, yeah.
Also, I'm guessing Posa never recants because he's never condemned to death?
Ugh, it's much more complicated than that, actually, and I would say that he does consider himself as a Martyr to the Cause, but that cause isn't atheism. In the play, I claim that he just gets lost in all his complicated plots :P So he's totally fanatical about progressivism in general and Flanders in particular, and everything else seems subsumed to that. When it looks like he's screwed up his plotting so that the King is bound to think Carlos is having an affair with the Queen (and thus decide to kill Carlos), he decides the best course of action is to frame HIMSELF as being in love with the Queen so that the king will kill HIM instead. If you think I am sounding frustrated with Posa here, you are correct! This is actually the culmination of several other complicated plans Posa has in the play, which go terribly wrong because he doesn't ever TELL, say, his best friend that he's plotting all this stuff involving him.
Oh, here, I found where I wrote about it: The manipulativeness also manifests in Schiller!Rodrigo also never actually telling Carlos about any of his Sekret Plans regarding Carlos' papers and such. In the play, in lieu of the auto-da-fe, Schiller!Posa actually shows Carlos' papers to the King minus a problematic letter-from-the-Queen, in order to clear Carlos' name with respect to having had an affair with her. He has a whole monologue where he ruminates about how he's being secretive, and things might well have turned out very differently had he actually just bothered to tell Carlos that he wasn't going to give the King the problematic letter. Because Carlos, understandably, thinks he's shown the King everything, and he is thinking along these lines:
CARLOS (lost in deep thought). And from me Has he concealed all this? And why from me?
(We all wonder this, Carlos!)
CARLOS. He loved me—loved me greatly: I was dear As his own soul is to him. That I know— Of that I've had a thousand proofs. But should The happiness of millions yield to one? Must not his country dearer to him prove Than Carlos?
It turns out this is not true, or at least not provably true, but Carlos can hardly be blamed for thinking so. (And indeed Posa says later, " I have created in my Carlos' soul/ A paradise for millions!" and one might suspect that if his creation hadn't turned out so well, that he might have not loved Carlos so well...?)
Indeed Posa's secret plans drive all the rest of the action of the play: Carlos, understandably worried that the Queen might be in trouble if Rodrigo is betraying him, goes and talks to Eboli to try to get her to get him in to warn the Queen. Posa, alarmed by this (because he does not trust Eboli), bursts in and arrests Carlos ("He is mad! He raves! Believe him not!" in another bit where the opera version makes Rodrigo look WAY more sympathetic). But it's too late, Posa thinks: Carlos has already told Eboli he loves the Queen. Then Posa basically sees no way out but to frame himself as in love with the queen and get assassinated by Philip. GAH.
Opera!Posa is just as dumb, though less manipulative and so I love him a lot more: he simply decides he wants to save Carlos' life and Flanders, and sacrifices himself by framing himself as the "traitor of Flanders." (This is actually rather more nonsensical than the play, as it doesn't seem to make up for the fact that opera!Carlo did draw his sword against the King, but whatever, it's an opera.)
Ohhhhh I didn't know that about Katherine Parr! (I knew she was the survivor :) ) That's awesome.
Haha, thanks for letting me ramble on about my fandom!
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Date: 2019-08-13 06:18 pm (UTC)Yeah, the Philip+Posa dynamic seems to be wildly different from the Friedrich Wilhelm+Katte dynamic. I guess you can't copy your sources exactly, have to be creative somewhere. ;)
Hee, yeah.
Also, I'm guessing Posa never recants because he's never condemned to death?
Ugh, it's much more complicated than that, actually, and I would say that he does consider himself as a Martyr to the Cause, but that cause isn't atheism. In the play, I claim that he just gets lost in all his complicated plots :P So he's totally fanatical about progressivism in general and Flanders in particular, and everything else seems subsumed to that. When it looks like he's screwed up his plotting so that the King is bound to think Carlos is having an affair with the Queen (and thus decide to kill Carlos), he decides the best course of action is to frame HIMSELF as being in love with the Queen so that the king will kill HIM instead. If you think I am sounding frustrated with Posa here, you are correct! This is actually the culmination of several other complicated plans Posa has in the play, which go terribly wrong because he doesn't ever TELL, say, his best friend that he's plotting all this stuff involving him.
Oh, here, I found where I wrote about it: The manipulativeness also manifests in Schiller!Rodrigo also never actually telling Carlos about any of his Sekret Plans regarding Carlos' papers and such. In the play, in lieu of the auto-da-fe, Schiller!Posa actually shows Carlos' papers to the King minus a problematic letter-from-the-Queen, in order to clear Carlos' name with respect to having had an affair with her. He has a whole monologue where he ruminates about how he's being secretive, and things might well have turned out very differently had he actually just bothered to tell Carlos that he wasn't going to give the King the problematic letter. Because Carlos, understandably, thinks he's shown the King everything, and he is thinking along these lines:
CARLOS (lost in deep thought).
And from me
Has he concealed all this? And why from me?
(We all wonder this, Carlos!)
CARLOS.
He loved me—loved me greatly: I was dear
As his own soul is to him. That I know—
Of that I've had a thousand proofs. But should
The happiness of millions yield to one?
Must not his country dearer to him prove
Than Carlos?
It turns out this is not true, or at least not provably true, but Carlos can hardly be blamed for thinking so. (And indeed Posa says later, " I have created in my Carlos' soul/ A paradise for millions!" and one might suspect that if his creation hadn't turned out so well, that he might have not loved Carlos so well...?)
Indeed Posa's secret plans drive all the rest of the action of the play: Carlos, understandably worried that the Queen might be in trouble if Rodrigo is betraying him, goes and talks to Eboli to try to get her to get him in to warn the Queen. Posa, alarmed by this (because he does not trust Eboli), bursts in and arrests Carlos ("He is mad! He raves! Believe him not!" in another bit where the opera version makes Rodrigo look WAY more sympathetic). But it's too late, Posa thinks: Carlos has already told Eboli he loves the Queen. Then Posa basically sees no way out but to frame himself as in love with the queen and get assassinated by Philip. GAH.
Opera!Posa is just as dumb, though less manipulative and so I love him a lot more: he simply decides he wants to save Carlos' life and Flanders, and sacrifices himself by framing himself as the "traitor of Flanders." (This is actually rather more nonsensical than the play, as it doesn't seem to make up for the fact that opera!Carlo did draw his sword against the King, but whatever, it's an opera.)
Ohhhhh I didn't know that about Katherine Parr! (I knew she was the survivor :) ) That's awesome.
Haha, thanks for letting me ramble on about my fandom!