re: Borcke letters - those would be in French, though, so maybe not the best to compare the handwriting.
I was convinced they were in German because the volume I read them in was in German, and in 1881 they tended to publish French letters in French...but of course now that I look closely, I'm reading a more recent translation, not just a more modern printing.
Well, yes, that would not help much with the handwriting...but at least the paper would tell us what Fritz had available to him in Wusterhausen in 1727, and you could compare that to Fredersdorf letters in the early 1750s.
(As is the German, tbh. Because we know Peter wrote to Fritz in French in later years, so I don't see why that would change or why Fritz would answer in German all of a sudden.)
The German is and always has been a huge pointer to Crown Prince Fritz for me.
The *only* reason I can think of for King Fritz switching to German would be that he and Peter early got into the habit young of German for personal, intimate conversation, and French for things that went through secretaries or were meant to be read aloud. Peter's other correspondence with Fritz went through secretaries, whereas this one obviously didn't. To paraphrase Selena's AP when he was talking about the Fredersdorf letters: "This letter wasn't written to be trendy!"
But...Fritz can be pretty intimate in French with all his other correspondents! And Fredersdorf wasn't fluent enough in French for a correspondence, so Fritz didn't have a choice. He was also known to allow business correspondence with ministers who didn't know (enough) French, but if he had a choice, I think he pretty consistently chose French.
There is Gröben, who apparently corresponded with Fritz in French and German, but I don't know if there's precedent for King Fritz doing that. If there were, though, it might very well be someone Fritz got used to corresponding with in German because they knew each other way back when.
By the way, did you compare this letter to the few facsimiles of Fredersdorff letters Richter included or just the transcriptions for spelling?
I thought about comparing the facsimiles for handwriting, but I haven't had time yet (it's 1500 pages of material! plus I've gone back to the last Prussian order!), and also what I really want to compare is the paper. But yes, there are plans to do this.
re: secret library - didn't that exist in 1727 already, with Duhan's help?
I think so? But did it always live in the same building? I don't know/remember. Maybe Fritz and Peter were trying to find a new place for it, especially as I assume it kept getting bigger over the years?
Also, does the "chagrin, affairs, work, and worries" line strike anyone else as more King than pre-1730 Crown Prince? I mean, I could see him writing that even as a sixteen-year-old, but somehow, it seems more like something King Fritz might list in this way.
Yes! I had that exact same thought before I even handed the letter over for opinions! I remember thinking, "I know young Fritz was overworked even as a teenager, Seckendorff commented on it, but the 'affairen' and 'arbeit' are not what I remember young Fritz really objecting to! That sounds more like a workaholic monarch with too many responsibilities, because he doesn't know how to delegate."
But the "I guess I'll be dragging it around for years"...well, adult!Fritz might write this in a moment of depression, but it does sound more like a teenager who's just getting used to it, than an adult who's been living with intermittent depression for 20-30 years?
Honestly, this whole letter is really curious to me. Each sentence on its own makes perfect sense for one point in time or other, but all of them together like this? Conundrum.
Yes!
What makes me lean toward Crown Prince is the whole idea of Fritz writing intimately to Peter, plus in German: even if they did revive the friendship in the 1750s, I would expect King Fritz to write in French.
Especially the work part - I'd expect Crown Prince to mention drill or hunting or something like that, especially if he's writing from Wusterhausen. (And keeping it vague in case of interception is pretty unlikely, given the creditors talk. Then again, the creditors seem more like Crown Prince Fritz indeed, because I'd expect King Fritz to simply order Fredersdorf for example to pay for things that need paying when he's away.)
Yeah, unless maybe it's Peter's creditors. Now, the only debt Peter had ever gotten into, as of 1750, according to him, was the one he was asking Fritz's help with in early 1750, and it is the early 1750s that the letter...but no, that doesn't work, Fritz had already given him money in the summer, which we know about thanks to Hanway.
The order in which the dates of these letters are placed, btw, are: 1749, 1749, 1753, undated German letter, 1752, 1755, 1753, 1756, 1756, 1772, 1774, undated German letter referring to "Frid. Wilhelm II".
So someone either found them or put them in roughly (but not strictly) chronological order--but that person didn't necessarily know when the Fritz letter dated from any more than we do.
Now that you've cross-checked Stratemann and Dessauer, someone needs to cross-check Rödenbeck for 1749-1755: was Fritz ever away for that long at that time of year?
The other thing I originally thought of in connection with this letter, but dismissed it, was September 1753, when Lehndorff says Fritz gave Peter a gracious invitation to join him at camp--but after reading Ziebura, I revised my original reading of that as an invitation to join Fritz in particular. It was an invitation-only, top-secret camp to practice military maneuvers, to which no foreigners were allowed to come. So my reading since learning that has been "Hey, Peter, you're allowed to come watch us practice," not, "Peter, I want to see you in particular."
And Lehndorff says Fritz was in a good mood and being extraordinarily generous with his officers. So he's not singling Peter out here. And if Lehndorff's commenting that the letter was "most gracious", he's probably heard it read aloud, and it was one of those letters in French that was meant to be shared.
Now, maybe in 1753 Fritz was in a good mood and Peter managed to use lessons learned to get on his good side, and some time in the future, either later in 1753, or in 1754 or 1755, Fritz was having a bleak moment and summoned Peter, and maybe because it was so personal, Peter didn't bruit it about that Fritz was summoning him for personal company...I need to check Rödenbeck for this theory.
But 1729 with an unknown "building" that could be a library, and some surprising objection to "affairs, work, and worries" instead of hunting and drilling and not getting to read books, still makes far more sense to me.
I'm just so very puzzled.
Okay, Rödenbeck cross-check for 1753-1755:
1753: Wilhelmine comes to visit in October. Fritz is switching back and forth between Potsdam and Berlin throughout October and November. Does not look like a good candidate.
1754: Fritz mostly in Potsdam until December 20, with only brief visits to Berlin. Could be, with Peter living in Berlin.
1755: Very similar to 1754. Also, Rödenbeck notes that in late October, Fritz wrote to Voltaire. Now, I did say, "Why didn't King Fritz just summon whoever? How is it 'one alone'?" but even as I wrote that, I thought, 1753-1755, the most likely years for Peter to be in favor, were after a lot of deaths and Frexits, and Fredersdorf is increasingly sick and also married. (Maybe Fritz is depressed about the second part, says the person who re-read "Prussian Doll" last week. :P)
So honestly, 1753-1755 fits pretty well with Fritz being away from Berlin until late November/early December, whereas 1728-1729 do not--I felt like FW usually returned a bit earlier than late November/early December, and Felis's and my findings back that up.
But yeah, why can't King Fritz handle creditors from Potsdam? It would be kind of hard to run his kingdom if he couldn't!
Every aspect of this letter fits either 1727-1728 or 1750-1755, but they're a little too evenly divided for my tastes!
What building projects were going on in 1753-1755?
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Re: Letter from Fritz...to Peter?
Date: 2023-06-23 02:58 pm (UTC)I was convinced they were in German because the volume I read them in was in German, and in 1881 they tended to publish French letters in French...but of course now that I look closely, I'm reading a more recent translation, not just a more modern printing.
Well, yes, that would not help much with the handwriting...but at least the paper would tell us what Fritz had available to him in Wusterhausen in 1727, and you could compare that to Fredersdorf letters in the early 1750s.
(As is the German, tbh. Because we know Peter wrote to Fritz in French in later years, so I don't see why that would change or why Fritz would answer in German all of a sudden.)
The German is and always has been a huge pointer to Crown Prince Fritz for me.
The *only* reason I can think of for King Fritz switching to German would be that he and Peter early got into the habit young of German for personal, intimate conversation, and French for things that went through secretaries or were meant to be read aloud. Peter's other correspondence with Fritz went through secretaries, whereas this one obviously didn't. To paraphrase Selena's AP when he was talking about the Fredersdorf letters: "This letter wasn't written to be trendy!"
But...Fritz can be pretty intimate in French with all his other correspondents! And Fredersdorf wasn't fluent enough in French for a correspondence, so Fritz didn't have a choice. He was also known to allow business correspondence with ministers who didn't know (enough) French, but if he had a choice, I think he pretty consistently chose French.
There is Gröben, who apparently corresponded with Fritz in French and German, but I don't know if there's precedent for King Fritz doing that. If there were, though, it might very well be someone Fritz got used to corresponding with in German because they knew each other way back when.
By the way, did you compare this letter to the few facsimiles of Fredersdorff letters Richter included or just the transcriptions for spelling?
I thought about comparing the facsimiles for handwriting, but I haven't had time yet (it's 1500 pages of material! plus I've gone back to the last Prussian order!), and also what I really want to compare is the paper. But yes, there are plans to do this.
re: secret library - didn't that exist in 1727 already, with Duhan's help?
I think so? But did it always live in the same building? I don't know/remember. Maybe Fritz and Peter were trying to find a new place for it, especially as I assume it kept getting bigger over the years?
Also, does the "chagrin, affairs, work, and worries" line strike anyone else as more King than pre-1730 Crown Prince? I mean, I could see him writing that even as a sixteen-year-old, but somehow, it seems more like something King Fritz might list in this way.
Yes! I had that exact same thought before I even handed the letter over for opinions! I remember thinking, "I know young Fritz was overworked even as a teenager, Seckendorff commented on it, but the 'affairen' and 'arbeit' are not what I remember young Fritz really objecting to! That sounds more like a workaholic monarch with too many responsibilities, because he doesn't know how to delegate."
But the "I guess I'll be dragging it around for years"...well, adult!Fritz might write this in a moment of depression, but it does sound more like a teenager who's just getting used to it, than an adult who's been living with intermittent depression for 20-30 years?
Honestly, this whole letter is really curious to me. Each sentence on its own makes perfect sense for one point in time or other, but all of them together like this? Conundrum.
Yes!
What makes me lean toward Crown Prince is the whole idea of Fritz writing intimately to Peter, plus in German: even if they did revive the friendship in the 1750s, I would expect King Fritz to write in French.
Especially the work part - I'd expect Crown Prince to mention drill or hunting or something like that, especially if he's writing from Wusterhausen. (And keeping it vague in case of interception is pretty unlikely, given the creditors talk. Then again, the creditors seem more like Crown Prince Fritz indeed, because I'd expect King Fritz to simply order Fredersdorf for example to pay for things that need paying when he's away.)
Yeah, unless maybe it's Peter's creditors. Now, the only debt Peter had ever gotten into, as of 1750, according to him, was the one he was asking Fritz's help with in early 1750, and it is the early 1750s that the letter...but no, that doesn't work, Fritz had already given him money in the summer, which we know about thanks to Hanway.
The order in which the dates of these letters are placed, btw, are: 1749, 1749, 1753, undated German letter, 1752, 1755, 1753, 1756, 1756, 1772, 1774, undated German letter referring to "Frid. Wilhelm II".
So someone either found them or put them in roughly (but not strictly) chronological order--but that person didn't necessarily know when the Fritz letter dated from any more than we do.
Now that you've cross-checked Stratemann and Dessauer, someone needs to cross-check Rödenbeck for 1749-1755: was Fritz ever away for that long at that time of year?
The other thing I originally thought of in connection with this letter, but dismissed it, was September 1753, when Lehndorff says Fritz gave Peter a gracious invitation to join him at camp--but after reading Ziebura, I revised my original reading of that as an invitation to join Fritz in particular. It was an invitation-only, top-secret camp to practice military maneuvers, to which no foreigners were allowed to come. So my reading since learning that has been "Hey, Peter, you're allowed to come watch us practice," not, "Peter, I want to see you in particular."
And Lehndorff says Fritz was in a good mood and being extraordinarily generous with his officers. So he's not singling Peter out here. And if Lehndorff's commenting that the letter was "most gracious", he's probably heard it read aloud, and it was one of those letters in French that was meant to be shared.
Now, maybe in 1753 Fritz was in a good mood and Peter managed to use lessons learned to get on his good side, and some time in the future, either later in 1753, or in 1754 or 1755, Fritz was having a bleak moment and summoned Peter, and maybe because it was so personal, Peter didn't bruit it about that Fritz was summoning him for personal company...I need to check Rödenbeck for this theory.
But 1729 with an unknown "building" that could be a library, and some surprising objection to "affairs, work, and worries" instead of hunting and drilling and not getting to read books, still makes far more sense to me.
I'm just so very puzzled.
Okay, Rödenbeck cross-check for 1753-1755:
1753: Wilhelmine comes to visit in October. Fritz is switching back and forth between Potsdam and Berlin throughout October and November. Does not look like a good candidate.
1754: Fritz mostly in Potsdam until December 20, with only brief visits to Berlin. Could be, with Peter living in Berlin.
1755: Very similar to 1754. Also, Rödenbeck notes that in late October, Fritz wrote to Voltaire. Now, I did say, "Why didn't King Fritz just summon whoever? How is it 'one alone'?" but even as I wrote that, I thought, 1753-1755, the most likely years for Peter to be in favor, were after a lot of deaths and Frexits, and Fredersdorf is increasingly sick and also married. (Maybe Fritz is depressed about the second part, says the person who re-read "Prussian Doll" last week. :P)
So honestly, 1753-1755 fits pretty well with Fritz being away from Berlin until late November/early December, whereas 1728-1729 do not--I felt like FW usually returned a bit earlier than late November/early December, and Felis's and my findings back that up.
But yeah, why can't King Fritz handle creditors from Potsdam? It would be kind of hard to run his kingdom if he couldn't!
Every aspect of this letter fits either 1727-1728 or 1750-1755, but they're a little too evenly divided for my tastes!
What building projects were going on in 1753-1755?