cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 18

...apparently reading group is the way to get lots of comments quickly?

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From:

prinzsorgenfrei

Do tell me what you think of it once you get to watch it!

Interesting is the right word, it's... quite a wild ride. I am trying not to spoil anything because I feel like you need to experience the weirdness for yourself. Some plot points just kind of sneak up on you and punch you in the jaw.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

oh man I wish we'd had that report on Christmas 1730 when we'd written our fics

IKR? Though on the other hand, my favorite part about this fandom is that the more time we spend in it, the more we discover. <3

But wait! The Stratemann volume says the reports cover the period up to 1733--surely he has something to say about the infamous Christmas of 1732!

WHAT. It skips from May 6, 1732 to April 29, 1733. Stratemann, like Lehndorff in Wust, you have failed in your gossipy duties to posterity. Tsk.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

It's amaaazing and hilarious how Damrosch, by and large, manages to give those same anecdotes while putting completely different spins on them.

I think that how you treat those below you in the hierarchy, especially if you yourself have fallen on hard times, is one of the best testimony's of character.

Damrosch agrees with this, but chooses radically different examples of how Boswell behaved toward the people below him in the hierarchy. If I have more time after I finish the book, I'll share some examples.

I'm under no illusions that I'm getting a balanced portrayal of these people, but much like with Bodanis' romanticizing bio of Voltaire and Émilie, I'm learning whole bunches of things I didn't know, and that's very useful. As recently agreed, we all started out with random unsourced anecdotes about Fritz! You have to start somewhere. :D

I've put the Barber book on my maybe list, thank you. My kingdom for more time! (Currently working on fix-it fic.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

34 pages! See, I can do it if I try. Wilhelmine is visiting Sanssouci for the first time, in 1750.

I admit I omitted her presence from Lovers, where she really should have been on Fritz's radar in the first chapter. The problem was that she's *so* important that it would have been hard to keep her from dominating the very specific story I wanted to tell, and she didn't fit into that set of parallels I was developing. But I gave her a starring role in the other fic!

From:

selenak

I thought his name rang a bell among Mitchell's correspondants, and sure enough, they were pals. Andrew Bisset - who just a page earlier is withering about Horace Walpole the Younger (aka the other bitchy memoirist of the era), because Walpole in turn had dissed both Villiers and Mitchell in favour of Hanbury Williams:

It might, indeed, have been supposed, that this, namely to be the carrier of tittle-tattle would be the beau ideal of a diplomatist, as understood by such a person as that egregious scandal-monger and retailer of Court small-talk—tittle-tattle of the smallest and dirtiest kind—Horace Walpole, the younger. Accordingly, we find him delivering himself of the following observations:—

"Every attempt of our sending men of parts to circumvent him had succeeded ill; the King of Prussia was so far a little genius that he dreaded trying himself against talents. For this reason he used Legge and Sir Charles Williams in the most ungracious manner. Lord Hyndford, Mr. Villiers and Mitchell were the men that suited him ; and had he known him, he would not have feared Yorke. But the King made Mitchell introduce him, would talk to him on no business, and entertained him with nothing but a panegyric on Mitchell.”* Let any one who knows anything of the characters of the two men, imagine Frederic of Prussia circumvented by Sir Charles Hanbury Williams.

Bisset then goes on to say that if he wanted wits, Fritz had Voltaire, he didn't need a small scale wit like Hanbury Williams. Otoh, he liked Mitchell for being a relative straight shooter among diplomats and a brave man, and surely Villliers was of the same type. Then Bisset goes on to quote a few letters from Villiers written to Mitchell during the 7 Years War, when Villiers had become Lord Hyde:

We have no doubt it was the same manly frankness, joined to good sense, which made Villiers, as well as Mitchell, an efficient negotiator with Frederic. The following letters from him, when Lord Hyde, to Mitchell, we have great pleasure in being enabled to publish, as affording very unequivocal testimony to the private worth and sociable and amiable qualities of both the parties. As regards the writer they show, we think, in a very unostentatious way, both head and heart.(...)

MY DEAR MITCHELL, 27. June 1761

Though I can’t say that I am fond of unnecessary writing or unnecessary talking, I was happy in receiving a letter from an old friend that I love; having heard that his health which endured the follies of youth had been injured by ministerial toils. By matrimony it seems I am freed from both, and enjoy life in a plain, insignificant way, with a wife that I value, and three boys and a girl. I give no flattery and receive no favours: I am not out of humour, but see things, as far as my sight will reach, without prejudice or partiality; how long this state of annihilation will last, I can’t determine as I have taken no resolutions on it, but considering my great indolence and little merit, I shall scarce be again in an active station; so my friends will
scarce ever have any thing of me, but my wishes which would have accompanied your's had I known they had tended to Augsbourg, I mean for yourself, for as to me I am happy that Lord Egremont is at the head of our ministers there. A fitter man, or one more my friend, England has none at present. Lord Granville is much as he was as to spirits and dignity, at least to us who see him daily and partially. Perhaps you would perceive that time had made its impression and lessened both. We often talk you over and wish for the stories we are to have when you return. Lord Jersey has rather more gout than he had, in other respects the same. Lord Weymouth is in the bed chamber and becomes it. H. Thynne has not yet altered his course of life. He begins to want a rich wife and a sinecure place, and I am disposed to imagine he will succeed.
Notwithstanding this sameness among a few, don't conclude that it extends through the state; you will find, whenever you come among the great, many new plans and new persons. I wish my poor friends in your parts were as I left them. I often feel for you and for Fritsch as much as for any. Let those who are alive, who are not many, and fall in your way, be assured of my regard, esteem, and compassion, and be yourself convinced that I am unalterably yours,
H.
My wife begs her compliments of friendship and esteem. As to the business part of your letter it shall be executed; much is due to your care and friendship.

Remember, Charles Hanbury Wlliams ended his life in the third stage of syphilis, locked up as mad, so this is about disposing of those of his possessions stillin various European countries:

MY DEAR MITCHELL, 24th Sept. 1763:
.
I am very glad to find by your favour of the 3d, that your health is better, and that you are not so germanised but that you wish to be among us; all who know you, wish to have you, none more than my wife and myself. You will find terrible gaps in our acquaintance; death has made cruel havock ; we that remain according to Prussian discipline should stand the closer.
As to the boxes in question, which have given you so much trouble, but at the same time an opportunity to show a very kind and friendly disposition, I have desired Mrs. Capel Hanbury, whose husband I believe to be an executor and abroad, to employ an agent authorized at Hamburg to receive and forward the same and to reimburse all expenses thereon. I am an entire stranger to Sir Charles Hanbury Williams' testamentary disposition, and to all the affairs of that family, or should not have left anything from you so long undone. I am, with the truest esteem, my dear Mitchell, most faithfully yours,

H.

MY DEAR MITCHELL, 1st Dec. 1763

I suppose the inclosed expresses Mr. Hanbury's sense of your obliging and friendly care of his brother's boxes, and a desire that they may be forwarded to him (who has authority from the younger brother, George, the executor, to receive them), with an assurance that he, Mr. Capel Hanbury, will reimburse, on demand, all expenses incurred on this occasion. This at least was the substance of our conversation, which he desired I would transmit, but I thought it proper that he should pay his own acknowledgments, where so much was due.
This past yesterday morning in the presence of Lord Harcourt, who joined in extolling your sociable and worthy qualities, and agreed that it would be very comfortable to hear your adventures from yourself over a bottle or two of claret. If anybody besides yourself thinks of me where you are, you may confidently assert that I retain warm gratitude for Berlin, but I imagine most of my ministerial and military acquaintances are gone gradually or precipitately to their last home, and that my female friends, if any are left, too much wrinkled for one who can pick and chuse. Should ever opportunity be so blindly favourable as to permit you to lay my duty and respects at his Prussian Majesty's feet, you may with great truth add that I shall ever feel, as I ought, the honour done me by his Majesty's most gracious opinion. Is there any historian attempting to describe and keep pace with his wonderful atchievements?
The death of the King of Poland, or rather the choice of a new one, will probably open a field for another volume. Was I as young and as unengaged as when I first knew that part of the world, I would again embark in that agitated sea. It is impossible not to have a kind of longing to admire so great a Prince in the midst of such important affairs; but as it is, I must be contented to tell old stories to my wife and children, and to read and explain the Gazettes. Was there any hopes of your assistance in these domestick amusements we should all be the happier. My wife joins in hearty wishes for your welfare, and in that perfect esteem with which I unalterably remain,
My dear Mitchell,
Most cordially yours,
HYDE.

Bisset's right, Villiers comes across very sympathetic here, and in really friendly terms with Mitchell. Not to mention that he evidently has good memories of his time in Prussia. So it's both likely he befriended Peter in his own right, and/or that he could have followed a Mitchell recommendation. Bear in mind, too, that Mitchell could be absolutely withering about someone Fritz did appoint as envoy to England, to wit, Lentulus. ("The second is Major-General Lentulus (formerly in the Austrian service), a tall, handsome Swiss, very weak, very vain, and very indiscreet, but, which is worst of all, a servile flatterer, and capable of reporting to his master the greatest falsehoods, if he thinks they will please him. Of this I had the strongest proofs, when, in the year 1756, Lentulus was sent to England, to give an account of the battle of Lobositz (at which he was not present). On his return into Saxony, he made a most absurd report to the King, his master, concerning the then state of affairs in England, which, after many months labour and infinite pains, I had at last the good fortune totally to annihilate. -")

So at a guess, Peter would have been perceived by contrast by Villiers (and possibly Mitchell) as someone who wasn't just England-friendly but actually familiar with enough with the place to send reliable reports home to Prussia instead of talking rubbish and flattery a la Lentulus.

From:

selenak

That depends. Has Katte already been executed? Or would Peter be executed first? Because I think FW would leave it at one example, seeing as Fritz then gets a breakdown and everyone at Küstrin assures FW he's learned his lesson. (So to speak.) I don't think he'd have gone through the trouble of sending Peter to Küstrin if Katte has already died, because he needed to tell himself he was harsh but fair, not gratitiously cruel. Also executing Peter in Berlin as the mutinous/deserting Potsdam Giants at the start of the year had been would serve the purpose of discouraging desertion among the army per se.

If Peter gets captured early on before Katte's execution, otoh, all bets are off. Even FW letting the tribunal's judgment on Katte stand (i.e. a life sentence, amounting to "however long FW lives" sentence), because he could have had a boyfriend executed in front of Fritz without grieving one of his trusted and loyal milistary an (Hans Heinrich) and grieving the only guy from his father's administration he really liked (Grandpa Wartensleben).

From:

selenak

re: Hille - his being according to Stratemann "an accomplished poet" in his own right certainly puts his complaints about Fritz' poetry in a new light!

From:

selenak

Post- submission at Küstrin, Stratemann reports that now the marriage game for Fritz has been restarted. Also, his return to Potdam is, once again, imminent:

"The local rooms of the Crown Prince are with all eagerness being redecorated, and it's even said that the King had ordered all the wallpaper that used to be in these rooms, and all the books and papers which were still here, to be burned."

Same entry (August 25th 1731): the next unlucky guy to succeed Gundling and the rage-quitting Faßmann doesn't fare much better:

The successor of the late Councillor Gundeling and of Faßmann as court historian, v. Drost, has been offered by the King a salary of 1000 Reichstaler, but he keeps protesting and doesn't want to accept this office and the treats going with it; but he has still been ordered to Potsdam, and it's not doubted that given time, he'll accept everything since he's not capable of avoiding this.

Don't be so sure, Stratemann. Fritz gets three new beautiful riding horses sent to him to Küstrin; he's now reported as socializing with the Wreechs. Meanwhile, Wilhelmine has been allowed to drink coffee with Fritz of Bayreuth Otoh, Stratemann reports Fritz' secret library has been sold, though the buyer, a "French merchant", no name given, has announced he's holding it for Fritz as a future present.

It's the anniversary of the battle of Malplaquet (most devastating European battle pre 7 Years War; young FW, Seckendorff and Grumbkow were all youthful participants, and their relationship started there) which FW celebrates each year, this time by being so drunk he can't get up from the floor anymore without his servants' help.

September 22nd: hunting time, AW allowed to participate for the first time, Heinrich has fallen sick : The royal Prince August Wilhelm has been permitted to go hunting for the first time, with a gun, and he has sent the first shot partridge to the old governess of the royal children, Madame v. Roucoulles, as a present.

(Adult AW will not be a fan of hunting.)

Meanwhile, Drost, too, has gotten the hell out of Prussia rather than accept Gundling's job, "and nobody knows where. His colleague the advocate, however, has shown himself here again, and will probably be commissioned in his place. (...) The Medicus shall wear the same costume as the late Gundlng, and if he wants to, it will be permitted to him to let his wife come to Prussia, and it will be allowed to him to take his creditor, v. Lövenklau, as his Maitre d'Hotel.

So will this concessions make the guy accept the job? Stay tuned...

In October, FW proves he doesn't necessarily stiff actors: A strong man who has arrived from Italy this week has been at the King's and has displayed his strength and has presented comedies with his troupe which consists of about 20 people, whereupon both Majesties and the court were so pleased that ihe did not only receive gifts but has been permitted to show his arts in this country for money; which is why he has ordered a house made of wood to be built at Neumarkt here, and willl debut next week.

However, there's still an ongoing problem:

The King supposedly has a burning desire to debate again with a learned man like Gundling or Faßmann history as well als all matters in Europe, and wants to have such a man near his person again, which is why the vice director of Halberstadt, v. Dacheröden, who has proved during his last stay here that he is a capable man, has been suggested. So the King in order to close the arrangement quickly has given an order already.

Yeah, well...

It's getting near November, when Wilhelmine is supposed to marry. Her sister Friederike, who has married the Margrave of Ansbach even before Fritz' escape attempt, is coming to Berlin for the first time since that marriage for the occasion. FW decides to hire some musicians to celebrate her arrival.

Thus a few of the royal Polish musicians have come from Dresden. What's more, the so called Dönhoff-Horrible Band Of Musicians has arrived as a backup, which consists of lame clubfeets, one eyed and humpback bodies, so that everyone will be shattered by the ensuing noise.

I bet. Ugh at 18th century abelism.

November 20th 1731: Wilhelmine's wedding starts: The Crown Prince has not come from Küstrin, despite the Princess Bride kept begging with letter after letter for it, and no royal order has been edited to him, either.

As you noticed from Oster, SD is much displeased at the new comedians making sex jokes and wants to protet her daughters from same, so the three youngest princesses aren't allowed to attend the comedian appearances anymore. Stratemann gives a thorough description of the ceremonies and what everyone was wearing. Like I said, he's the old fashioned conservative gossip magazine of envoys. The bedding ceremony:

The King has helped the groom undress, the Queen has helped the bride, and then the later's eyes were bound while the bridal crown which was taken from her head has been given to another, who happened to be her youngest sister Princess Amalie, who took it. Then the noble couple had to go into bed in charming sleeping wear in front of all the illustrious guests, while the King held a little joking sermon and has sung a funny song, and then said: they should kiss each other now. Which they either out of awe or out of dumbness did not do, but probably wanted to postpone for another time. After everyone withdrew, the bridal couple was transported in chaises to the apartment destined for them, to which the King and the Queen followed them. They wished them a good night, and withdrew again; meanwhile, dancing kept up until late at night. (...)

Post Scriptum. De dato Berlin, 24. Nov. 1731. Last night around 7 pm and when the ball had already been started hours earlier, the Crown Prince, at first completely unknown and not with his cavaliers, has appeared at court. As soon as he was recognized by the princesses, his sisters (plural, yes), the joy has been indescribable, and many, many people both illustrious and not have shed tears of joy, including the Crown Prince himself. His Royal Highness looked somewhat serious while there was dancing, and hasn't danced with a lady other than his sisters and some princely people. He wore a grey suit, which had silver tressings at the edges, and which is referred in this country as a Secret Councillor Frock. So it is said that the King two days ago has sent an urgent message to Küstrin calling his royal highness here.

Stratemann will later say something more about Fritz at the wedding, which is typical for his style: first the white washed version, then somewhat later the admittance there were maybe some flies in the ointment after all.

There's a sketch of the wedding table and who sat where! So if anyone wants to write fanfic about Wilhelmine's wedding, this is really the book to consujlt. Even Polyanna Stratemann notes that SD retired early each evening of the wedding festivities after the first day.

FW is reported in a great mood throughout the week of Wilhelmine's wedding celebrations:

The King shows his tenderness towards the royal children in public, as they kissed the King's hands a dozen times, and have been allowed to kiss him on the mouth as well, which both the Margravine of Ansbach (Friederike) and her sister, the Princess Bride of Bevern (Charlotte) did at once, and then the former had to kiss her husband on the King's demand; morever, the Princess of Bayreuth and the little princesses received the grace to kiss their Papa and be kissed by him.
After Count Seckendorff declared supper to have ended, the King gave in front of all illustrious guests with unusual solemnity to the Crown Prince the sword of an officer, and the uniform to go with it, along with the regiment Golz which was transfered to him, which is why on the following days one saw the Prince at the parade wearing a blue coat to the greatest marvelling of the public, as his royal highness just a year ago when the Cavalry and the Colonel Lieutenant office of the King's Regiment had been taken from him had vowed never again to wear a blue coat.

On the dispatch dated December 11th 1731, Stratemann admits that maybe it wasn't all harmony at the wedding:

Secretly, one is assured: that the Crown Prince when he was present here has shown a disagreeable face to some people, and that this has been the cause of his sudden departure back to Küstrin, and that this is why it's now doubtful that the Prince will get the Golz regiment and other privileges after all.

Okay. According to Wilhelmine's memoirs, Fritz was cold-to-rude towards her new husband and distant to her, and Grumbkow (neglecting to mention that he'd advised Fritz to put up some boundaries) told her the King was displeased by this. I had written this off as double talk by Grumbkow, but I can't think of who else Fritz was noticed to have been rude to at the wedding, causing this rumor to reach Polyanna Stratemann's ears.

On December 29, 1731, we get a description of the Hohenzollern Clan celebrating the Christmas of 1731:

On Christmas Eve, the King has ordered small frogs to be exposed in the antechamber in order to amuse the little princes and princesses, and has given presents to all the family of royal blood, which were very precius and consisted of silver pieces and gallant trifles. The Prince of Bayreuth and his wife were given presents in the worth of 1000 Reichstaler. The Margrave of Ansbach and his wife got presents in the same worth, and many boxes were filled with them. What the two oldest princesses thus received were other than two precious boxes dozens of plates, knives, forks and spoons, big silver soup bowls, great candelabras, two big spoons for potatos, a barber bowl with a pot and a box to put the soap into. Princess Charlotte the Bevern Bride has received two silver brooms for the kitchen and other silver pieces. Princess Sophie got the least of all from the King, as she was only given two plates and some pretty trifles, but the Queen has more than made up for this since her Majesty gave her secretly a big cruxific full of diamonds. Princess Ulrike, who is the King's current favourite, has been given various gallant trifles in addition to three big plates and one candelabra. The little princes received an equal share of silver coins but also silver rods, with which the King hit the Prince Wilhelm's fingers with in jest, whereupon the Prince was shocked and by jumping back had a bad fall, which is why he's now confined to a sickbed.

No matter how pleasantly this evening passed, the next Christmas Day the King was suffering from a strong colic and threw up, so that her Majesty, too, has not left her room. In the evening, the joyful news was spread that the King through the main doctor Stahl's care and eagerness has been completely recovered.

No, I don't know where he got the frogs in December from. And the German word is "Fröschling", which I can't translate in another fashion but "little frog". Also, poor AW.

Stratemann hears rumors that give yet another reason why Fritz left Berin not overhwelmed with joy:

The local fish market wants to know about the Crown Prince's recent return to Küstrin: that a marriage has been offered to this dear lord which he hasn't been able to agree with joy on yet.

Given whom Fritz ends up marrying, this is rather coy from the Brunswick envoy.

January 12th 1732: At Christmas, the Crown Prince has been in Frankfurt, where the students have prepared a song and some music for him. But his marriage keeps nearly every journalist busy to get the scoop on, without knowing any certainties.

Since this Frankfurt (an der Oder) musical presentation is one of the two origin stories for Fritz/Fredersdorf we have, I note they spent the Christmas of 1731 together, at least.

Stratemann's tactful hint that Fritz is no yett keen on EC: There is much rumor about this prince's current establishment about which, due to worrisome causes, discreet silence must be kept; one has to wait for the certain success.

In early 1732, Franz Stephan's impending arrival causes quite a buzz. He shows up on February 15th, i.e. a good month before the official Fritz/EC engagment party (March 10th), and is a hit with most people, including Fritz.

The report about the engagement party is written on March 15th: The Crown Prince has started the ball with the Queen after supper on this most special engagement day, the King with the Duchess of Bevern, then with the Princess Bride and some of his princess daughters, and all the illustrious foreign visitors have shown themselves joyful and happy, and entertained themselves with both old and new dances. (..) The Duke of Lorraine finds much joy here, and his royal highness likes this residence in particular, due to the free conversation and not being bound to any ceremony, but also due to the daily interaction with the Royal family, and he has said: that he'd rather sit and eat with the young princes and princesses than at the Queen's table.

I bet, Franzl, I bet. I mean, if you had the choice to sit with glowering SD or with the kids from AW and Ulrike downwards, whom would you pick?

FW has a great idea for an extra (and cheap) engagement present for his new Braunschweig in-laws:

The smallest royal Prince, August Ferdinand, who is now nearly two years old and has been called August so far, now following the highest order should be adressed as Prince Ferdinand, which is the name he received from the Duke of Bevern, whereas the first one was in honor of the King of Poland.

(August the Strong, who is now dead.)

The rest of the dispatches has the news that Wilhelmine has written she's really happy with her new husband in Bayreuth, the Protestant religious refugees from Salzburg arrive, and then there's the sudden time jump of a year to 1733 when Fritz gets married. No more interesting stuff. But no matter; Stratemann certainly delivered before that.

Edited Date: 2020-10-05 12:03 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

Incidentally, I suck at spreadsheet filling - could you add both our Frederician and our Voltaire lot to the confirmed nominations, oh mighty tabulator?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Happy to, if you point me to the right place. I'm not seeing a post in YT or YT-admin about a different spreadsheet, and I'm not seeing either a column or a sheet in the existing spreadsheet to indicate what's been approved. Help?

From:

cahn

Ah, you don't hang out in the slums like

selenak and I do :) (It's being hosted by FFA and

coaltide, as far as I know.)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XO2D8BbqeafK29a7mB2AARN-r0xcdIxaz_AGdYg5-z0/edit?usp=sharing

I would have done it myself but I guess you have to ask the administrator for edit access and I have to get back on the VPN before school ends... But if you don't do it by tonight I can do it.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Thanks! I figured Selena had gone to bed and you would see this and pop in with an answer. :) I've requested edit access and will let you know if I'm successful before tonight.

ETA: Still no edit access, alas. You're on your own!

Edited Date: 2020-10-06 03:13 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

We could have had little frogs in our fics, just think. Next time!

with which the King hit the Prince Wilhelm's fingers with in jest, whereupon the Prince was shocked and by jumping back had a bad fall, which is why he's now confined to a sickbed.

- AW forced to intervene on behalf of a long fellow under threat of being whipped by rod.
- FW jokingly threatens to cut off AW's fingers.
- AW finds out FW cuts off his officers' heads and doesn't want to be an officer any more.
- FW jokingly hits AW with a rod, resulting in a fall that lands him in a sickbed.

Even the favorite kid had it rough, man.

But no matter; Stratemann certainly delivered before that.

He did indeed! Both for information we didn't already have, and for what was going through the rumor mill at the time, which is always of interest to me: contemporaries didn't have the opportunities to do all the comparative review of sources with the benefit of hindsight that we have, so for fanfic purposes, it's often useful to have characters be *wrong*. (E.g. Fritz wearing Katte's coat, or when

cahn originally had Katte executed "practically" in front of Fritz's eyes, and I pointed out that contemporaries hadn't read Hoffbauer and the majority would have said "in front of.")

For future reference, here's the seating chart.

I'm so glad the German reading group decided to cover Oster! Back when you read it, we had no way of knowing that envoy reports were such gold mines of scholarly interest and/or gossipy sensationalism.

Oh, did you ever give us the story of how Ferdinand's nurse was chosen? There's been a lot of material, and maybe I missed it, but I've been waiting. :)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Indeed! I'm dumbfounded.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

This is all SO GREAT, thank you!

I have discovered through some googling that Mitchell, Hanbury Williams, and Villiers were among the earliest (founding?) members of the Society of Dilettanti, the club that was founded in in 1730s by a group of young English gentleman who had met on the Grand Tour, whose purpose was to further the study of Greek and Roman art and archaeology, and the one of which Walpole said, "The nominal qualification for membership is having been in Italy, and the real one, being drunk." (I actually recognized that quote from The Club!)

Not having been to Italy, Peter can't have joined, but given that he spent the years 1734-1736 (my best estimate, based on his eulogy) in London, hanging out with intellectuals, it's not unlikely he joined some sort of club.

Villiers also makes appearances in that book on Andrew Mitchell and Anglo-Prussian diplomatic relations that you were going to try to track down.

So at a guess, Peter would have been perceived by contrast by Villiers (and possibly Mitchell) as someone who wasn't just England-friendly but actually familiar with enough with the place to send reliable reports home to Prussia instead of talking rubbish and flattery a la Lentulus.

Yep, this sounds very plausible.

Is there any historian attempting to describe and keep pace with his wonderful atchievements?

:D

Yes, but some of them will be more reliable than others.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

All sounds convincing to me.

because he could have had a boyfriend executed in front of Fritz without grieving one of his trusted and loyal milistary an (Hans Heinrich) and grieving the only guy from his father's administration he really liked (Grandpa Wartensleben).

:(

Yet another "break it differently" AU.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

27 pages. Quota met! If I meet my quota again tomorrow, I will finish the book. Then the plan is vol 2 of her memoirs (to give

cahn a breathing space), and then Lehndorff!

I read up through the end of the Italy trip. The Seven Years' War is coming, then death. :/

From:

mildred_of_midgard

the sheer, well, normalcy of Garrick's life style when not on stage is amazing. He just seems to have been a nice person.

You'll know this quote, but I have to share it with

cahn. For context, Garrick was an acclaimed actor:

When Boswell tried to get a rise out of him by suggesting that Garrick was too vain about his reputation, Johnson retorted, "Sir, it is wonderful how little Garrick assumes. Consider, Sir: celebrated men, such as you have mentioned, have had their applause at a distance; but Garrick had it dashed in his face, sounded in his ears, and went home every night with the plaudits of a thousand in his cranium. … If all this had happened to me, I should have had a couple of fellows with long poles walking before me, to knock down everybody that stood in the way."

:D

From:

selenak

Frogs: belatedly, I have a new theory, based on a) Stratemann early on, in the 1728, mentioning how much little AW loves fireworks and how FW indulges him in this, and b) the factthat firecrackers are called “Knallfrösche” in modern German - maybe “Fröschlinge” was the Rokoko term, and what FW did was allow firecrackers lighted in the antechambre to amuse the kids? (Cleaning staff: thanks, your majesty!)

Seating chart: footnote also for future reference: Princes Wilhelm and Heinrich aren’t AW and our Heinrich respectively, they are the Schwedt cousins. AW and our Heinrich are “2nd Royal Prince” and “3rd Royal Prince” respectively.

Ferdinand’s wetnurse: chosen about a month before SD gave birth via comitee consisting of favored court ladies, there were so many other passages I wanted to translate that I abandoned it. Still can do it, though, since I assume this is how it worked for the other royal children as well. (Except Amalie, if Wilhelmine didn’t make it up about SD not realising/being in denial about being pregnant again until shortly before the birth; I imagine that meant the wetnurse for Amalie had to be found really quickly.)

Even the favorite kid had it rough, man.

Quite. And at Christmas, too. Let’s hope he had at least fun with the firecrackers, if I’m right about this.

Contemporaries getting it wrong: My favourite example of a contemporary being utterly wrong remains Zimmermann’s theory about the escape attempt being that Fritz was on his way to Austria to marry MT, and that later FS showed up at his engagement party to gloat over his defeated rival.

Incidentally, I do find it interesting that Stratemann is so superdiscreet and cryptic about what concerns his boss most- Fritz being so super unkeen on EC. As a point of comparison, Seckendorff the Field Marshall in his letters to Prince Eugene and to the Emperor’s office of course reports what FW, SD and Fritz say at any given point about the Emperor (or other members of the imperial family). And Mitchell reports Fritz being uncomplimentary about Mr.Pitt as it happens. And Podewils of course gives Fritz any voiced MT opinion on himself. Maybe this reflects that Braunschweig, while one of the large, important duchies within the HRE, was still not in a league with Prussia, or maybe Stratemann didn’t want to test how much his Duke wanted that marriage to happen by reporting some of the things not just Fritz but SD and Charlotte said about poor EC at different times. It also goes against the way he consistently tries to put the best spin on the royal family and their behavior. There’s no way to spin “so I hear the Queen and our future Duchess in front of the servants talked about Princess EC has fistula in her anus”.

From:

cahn

OK, it looks like spreadsheeter is asleep; when they wake up, and if they are giving out access, I would expect them to give you edit access then --

-- now, I'm not totally sure whether the spreadsheet editor is letting other random people edit (which is... probably wise). If you haven't got access by the time you wake up, then I expect it's not happening and one or more of us can report in an FFA or coaltide thread. Though honestly, I think it's OK if we don't report it -- we'll get the whole tagset in a few days!

From:

cahn

I'm mentally translating that description to "FW was extra considerate to SD in the vain hope of getting laid again, but no dice".

HAHAHAHA yeah I totally buy that!

...you know, Oster does kind of bring home to me what you've told me before, that FW really did love SD and the whole idea of being a family man in his own dysfunctional way. Sigh.

From:

cahn

Oh Fritz! Come on, you could at least simulate being sympathetic towards your favorite sister :P

From:

cahn

Oh yaaaaaay thank you! :DDDD I'm sadly taking a super long time to watch things these days (even without Yuletide breathing down my neck) so fair warning, it may take me a while, but I'm so excited for this! Crazy and weird and Fritz seems like a combination that will be at the very least highly amusing :D

From:

cahn

I mean, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that he has mixed feelings about Fritz as well

Oh sure, I totally believe that. I think he'd have to be a saint not to have mixed feelings when his son would still hvae been alive if Fritz hadn't gotten him involved. But that's distinct from actually executing him. >:(

Absolutely. And that's why I'm majorly sideeying those editors and historians who are complaining about her being a bad daughter, or hysterical, and that poor FW was the one to be pitied, with his wife and two oldest ganging up on him.

:((((((((((((( Yeah, no.

On a lighter note, Hervey in his memoirs has this passage of G2 ranting about how lousy sons are the worst, absolute scum, fathers are martyrs, and then he suddenly recalls his own dear old dad and adds, yes, okay, there are bad fathers and good sons as well.

Hah! Hervey, you always come through with amusement value. Lol.

From:

cahn

and finding she decided because she got told God took *dead person X* if there was no God, there would be no dead people, patiently explains this would not be the case, so Veronica is good with God again

OK, I love all these stories, but this one is just lovely <3