at least the translation says he was trying to break him, which I feel like might be a little less common?...Of course that particular bit was Ziebura speaking, not FW himself
No, "broken" was FW speaking. Eigenhändig (in his own hand) to boot!
6. Weil er auch einen Kopf hat, wie die Kinder alle haben, so muss dieser beizeiten gebrochen werden.
He also used "broken" to describe the desired state of Fritz's heart in the minutes immediately following Katte's execution. (Broken and therefore hopefully susceptible to being guided back onto the proper religious path by the preacher who was to be standing by at the execution.)
And yes, *that*, even at the time, was weird. Pace Preuss, FW wasn't a typical "deutscher Hausvater", either in his goals or in his methods. Here's how I think 18th century fathers stacked up:
- Expecting blind obedience beyond what we would consider healthy now: normal.
- Corporal punishment: varied.
- Micromanaging your kid's life and trying to break his will so that he never does anything he wants even when you're not around: weird.
- Threatening to kill your kid: WTF???
- Actually killing your kid: Peter the Great.
the bit about FW breaking his son in "Survived" was the product of several earlier drafts where mildred said I wasn't getting that part quite right. :)
With this part, I think it was less about not getting it right and more about me trying to help with the arc of the story. Since Fredersdorf has heard about the execution and met Fritz during the imprisonment, he can't exactly think everything is sunshine and roses between FW and Fritz. But the point of writing the first Christmas was for him to experience the dysfunction at close hand and realize just how bad it really is. And there are little things like SD ranting in front of the servants and FW keeping track of candle usage, but it occurred to me that a good major realization for Fredersdorf to have would be to go from believing that things were bad between FW and Fritz, but that a bunch of the conflicts were one-offs, the product of FW's temper--Fredersdorf giving him the benefit of the doubt and believing he does things he regrets--to Fredersdorf realizing that FW is actually trying to break Fritz: that hurting his oldest son isn't a bug, but a feature. And that's where Fredersdorf starts having second thoughts about whether this is what he signed up for.
The one where I felt maybe we needed to acknowledge FW's parenting wasn't as abnormal then as it is now was when you had the kids not speaking unless spoken to at the table, and Fredersdorf taking that as a sign something was wrong. Whereas to me, especially when your parents are monarchs, that feels way more normal.
Actually, you've read Farmer's Boy, right? I think Almanzo's father makes a good contrast with FW here.
The children have to do an adult's work on the farm at the age of 8 or whatever.
They get whipped for infractions.
They're not allowed to speak at the table unless spoken to.
Remember the last scene? Almanzo's father actually asks him what he thinks about being apprenticed and what kind of career he wants for himself, and Almanzo's shocked that he gets to have an opinion about his own future.
We find out in later books and/or Laura's letters that Almanzo's dad had the right to keep him on the farm and collect all his earnings until he was twenty-one, but Mr. Wilder actually gave his sons their independence at age 18 and let them take jobs, move out, keep their own money, etc.
And, Almanzo and his father have a good rapport.
Now, how this played out in real life, who knows. Laura clearly glamorized Pa and made Ma look worse in at least some respects than she was. But the point is that corporal punishment, "children should be seen and not heard," and children's futures being decided by their parents might have been normal then, but the kind of fear and hatred you get between Fritz and FW, or, say, Bullet and John Tillerman, isn't inevitable. Because Mr. Wilder on the one hand is capable of saying, "Everyone gets up at 5 am to go out to the fields, and you work diligently until I say it's time to eat," to his children, but also, "If Almanzo's heart's not in it, there's no point in forcing him into a career as a farmer. Let him go apprentice in the city," to his wife. Which is not an FW thing to do!
Or, from (totally fictional) Outlander, Jamie speaking: "My father whipped me as often as he thought I needed it, and a lot oftener than I thought I did. But I didna cower when he spoke to me. And I dinna think young Rabbie will lie in bed with his wife one day and laugh about it.
“He’s right; the lad’s his own son, he can do as he likes. And I’m not God; only the laird, and that’s a good bit lower down. Still…”
So that's why I think when the Hohenzollern kids are actively cringing around their parents in "Survived", it's a good clear signal of abusiveness even by the standards of the time.
And Fritz not saying *anything* during that one historical meal where he had to cut the meat is a bit different, in that it's a larger gathering of 21 people, where many different conversations would have been happening as everyone talked to the people sitting next to them (like Fritz and Suhm during the infamous forced intoxication episode). In contrast to a family-only meal, where I assume the adults talk and the kids wait to be addressed.
selenak, tell me if you disagree with any of my take on this. I speculate and extrapolate a lot in my betaing of historical mores.
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Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-30 12:24 am (UTC)No, "broken" was FW speaking. Eigenhändig (in his own hand) to boot!
6. Weil er auch einen Kopf hat, wie die Kinder alle haben, so muss dieser beizeiten gebrochen werden.
He also used "broken" to describe the desired state of Fritz's heart in the minutes immediately following Katte's execution. (Broken and therefore hopefully susceptible to being guided back onto the proper religious path by the preacher who was to be standing by at the execution.)
And yes, *that*, even at the time, was weird. Pace Preuss, FW wasn't a typical "deutscher Hausvater", either in his goals or in his methods. Here's how I think 18th century fathers stacked up:
- Expecting blind obedience beyond what we would consider healthy now: normal.
- Corporal punishment: varied.
- Micromanaging your kid's life and trying to break his will so that he never does anything he wants even when you're not around: weird.
- Threatening to kill your kid: WTF???
- Actually killing your kid: Peter the Great.
the bit about FW breaking his son in "Survived" was the product of several earlier drafts where mildred said I wasn't getting that part quite right. :)
With this part, I think it was less about not getting it right and more about me trying to help with the arc of the story. Since Fredersdorf has heard about the execution and met Fritz during the imprisonment, he can't exactly think everything is sunshine and roses between FW and Fritz. But the point of writing the first Christmas was for him to experience the dysfunction at close hand and realize just how bad it really is. And there are little things like SD ranting in front of the servants and FW keeping track of candle usage, but it occurred to me that a good major realization for Fredersdorf to have would be to go from believing that things were bad between FW and Fritz, but that a bunch of the conflicts were one-offs, the product of FW's temper--Fredersdorf giving him the benefit of the doubt and believing he does things he regrets--to Fredersdorf realizing that FW is actually trying to break Fritz: that hurting his oldest son isn't a bug, but a feature. And that's where Fredersdorf starts having second thoughts about whether this is what he signed up for.
The one where I felt maybe we needed to acknowledge FW's parenting wasn't as abnormal then as it is now was when you had the kids not speaking unless spoken to at the table, and Fredersdorf taking that as a sign something was wrong. Whereas to me, especially when your parents are monarchs, that feels way more normal.
Actually, you've read Farmer's Boy, right? I think Almanzo's father makes a good contrast with FW here.
The children have to do an adult's work on the farm at the age of 8 or whatever.
They get whipped for infractions.
They're not allowed to speak at the table unless spoken to.
Remember the last scene? Almanzo's father actually asks him what he thinks about being apprenticed and what kind of career he wants for himself, and Almanzo's shocked that he gets to have an opinion about his own future.
We find out in later books and/or Laura's letters that Almanzo's dad had the right to keep him on the farm and collect all his earnings until he was twenty-one, but Mr. Wilder actually gave his sons their independence at age 18 and let them take jobs, move out, keep their own money, etc.
And, Almanzo and his father have a good rapport.
Now, how this played out in real life, who knows. Laura clearly glamorized Pa and made Ma look worse in at least some respects than she was. But the point is that corporal punishment, "children should be seen and not heard," and children's futures being decided by their parents might have been normal then, but the kind of fear and hatred you get between Fritz and FW, or, say, Bullet and John Tillerman, isn't inevitable. Because Mr. Wilder on the one hand is capable of saying, "Everyone gets up at 5 am to go out to the fields, and you work diligently until I say it's time to eat," to his children, but also, "If Almanzo's heart's not in it, there's no point in forcing him into a career as a farmer. Let him go apprentice in the city," to his wife. Which is not an FW thing to do!
Or, from (totally fictional) Outlander, Jamie speaking: "My father whipped me as often as he thought I needed it, and a lot oftener than I thought I did. But I didna cower when he spoke to me. And I dinna think young Rabbie will lie in bed with his wife one day and laugh about it.
“He’s right; the lad’s his own son, he can do as he likes. And I’m not God; only the laird, and that’s a good bit lower down. Still…”
So that's why I think when the Hohenzollern kids are actively cringing around their parents in "Survived", it's a good clear signal of abusiveness even by the standards of the time.
And Fritz not saying *anything* during that one historical meal where he had to cut the meat is a bit different, in that it's a larger gathering of 21 people, where many different conversations would have been happening as everyone talked to the people sitting next to them (like Fritz and Suhm during the infamous forced intoxication episode). In contrast to a family-only meal, where I assume the adults talk and the kids wait to be addressed.