cahn: Me: ...I don't know about that, it seems to me that if you had a portrait of someone in your bedroom -- The ghost of Fritz, in the back: *raises hand*
selenak: ROTFLOL. Ah, but him and MT were special.
Also ROTFLOL. Don't forget Joseph! Joseph the Rational Fanboy, and Fritz the A+ Troll. (What do you think Peter III had in his bedroom?)
:) Well, firstly, Joseph having a Fritz portrait in his bedroom was something I've made up for the crack fic. I don't think he'd have gotten away with it in rl while Mom was alive. And afterwards he was out of his fanboy phase, though still impressed, of course. Mind you, he later did put up a portrait of Catherine there - after meeting her - so....
Secondly, you reposting the Casanova descriptions has reminded me that not only did Fritz have the MT portrait in his bedroom but that, according to Casanova, he had one of Barbarina as well as of D'Argens sister-in-law, who was also a dancer. The later two were Penses, so he might have had them for the artistic value and because Pense was the court painter whom he paid anyway. The MT portrait he actively asked for. So I maintain arch nemesis specialness!
Re: owner of the original "Sans Souci" trademark: Per MacDonogh, "Sans Souci" was a childhood nickname of sister Charlotte, but for all I know, he's thinking of some other Charlotte. Would you happen to know, O Knowledgeable About the Siblings?
Nope, not mentioned in the bios I've read so far, at least not that I recall. However, I have not read...
Speaking of the siblings, having you read Pangels' Königskinder im Rokoko? He cites it a lot, but I have no idea if it's outdated (1976) or a good resource or what.
That. Though my local libraries probably have it. Aaaanyway, if Mantteuffel calls his country estate "Sorgenfrey", I doubt he did so after one of the Hohenzollern sisters who was already married off to Braunschweig by the time he started to hang out with Fritz. So my money is still on him for having come up with the name first, for now.
He could have Fritzplained so many things, Heinrich!
Well, he tried his best once Heinrich actually was in Russia. Probably while going via Suhm's old letters. ;) (Can't help pointing out that Fritz's favorites were better, though. :P)
No contest if we're talking about his long term guys (minus Voltaire), but as we've seen, the witty pretties...
Incidentally, I should say that Heinrich's boyfriend disasters did have talents other than money wasting (and presumably sex); Mara really was a top musician (found an admiring reference in Lehndorff when Mara is still a teen in AW' s employ; Heinrich took over some of AW's staff that Louise wouldn't, including the artists, but since it was war didn't actually live with them until later; and then he financed Mara the musical studies in Paris, after which he did get involved with now grown up Mara, which, well, da capo al fine). Kalkreuth made a military career under FW2 and FW3 up to Field Marshal. (And, probably resentful because Heinrich had still dumped him for Kaphengst despite Kalkreuth having gone to the effort of compromising poor Mina, claimed he was the true genius of the Seven-Years-War and had devised all of Heinrich's strategies. Later historians, able to check who was when where and everyone's correspondance, didn't buy it, but Miraubeau did. So also did early historians offended at the Fritz criticism. "So he's claiming the Great King wasn't even that great, huh? Well, he certainly wasn't, it was all the boyfriend!") Tauentzien Jr., he of the teaching an actor to play Fritz at the Comedie Francaise, also made a military career under FW2 and FW3, though not as impressive as his Dad's under Fritz. Kaphengst seems to have been not just a party animal in the obvious sense but, before it got out of control someone with a gift to cheer up any society. (Early on, Lehndorff likes him way more than Kalkreuth, but that, err, changes later. Somehow I do not think it was solely because Kaphengst spent more and more of Heinrich's money...) Which wasn't to be underestimated because Heinrich in the mid 1760s comes across as permanently depressed and in a bad mood, lashing out at people (poor Mina). Not that surprising when you consider the war was over, the post of post traumatic stress had arrived, and essentially he was suddenly without an occupation again. I mean, living the country life in Rheinsberg is lovely, but he wasn't even forty, and going from basically co-commander of the army to gentleman of leisure with no government responsibilities at that age? Equally unsurprisingly, this starts to turn around when by the end of the 1760s he gets to travel abroad for the first time (the Netherlands, Sweden, Russia) and gets to work as a diplomat and negotiator. Cue end of Heinrich the melancholic and bad tempered and return of Heinrich the charming and endearing in Lehndorff's journals.
Which incidentally would imply Thiébault had access to Wilhelmine's memoirs, probably via all those exiled intellectuals at Fritz's court, and Catt didn't.
I noticed Hamilton and Preuß both have it in for Thiébault and call him "unreliable". Possibly because of the similarities to W & P? Anyway, preface editor quotes him snarking about Catt a bit (not in terms of reliability, just that he, T, had to do the actual reading as in reading out loud when Fritz didn't do it himself because Catt's voice wasn't even that pleasant) but cautions that he considers T as somewhat unreliable, too. What the diary editor with all the listing of Catt's alternate sources which I quoted in my comment above never mentions are W's memoirs, or even the possibility of them. Maybe potentially chatty Bayreuth artists just thought Catt would blab to Fritz and Thiebault would not? On the other hand! Fritz has Voltaire arrested for possessing poetry that Fritz wrote that he doesn't want the rest of Europe to see; sends Voltaire more potentially damning poetry almost immediately after getting back in touch with Voltaire*. I know Voltaire is special, but sometimes Fritz's judgment...
Very true. And Preface writer quotes a couple of non-Catt sources on him being a very likeable fellow when he starts out with Fritz, among them D'Argens (who also assures Fritz he can absolutely trust Catt. Then again, D'Argens had also reccommended de Prades.)
There's also another tidbit Catt and Voltaire have that agrees with W/P/T, to which they don't have access: Fritz thought *he* was about to be executed.
Now this can't have come from Eichel - which, see other comment, preface writer says proded Catt with other information - and thus sounds like a genuine Fritz information.
Oof. Well, my Peter has strong feelings of insecurity around Hans Hermann, the romantic hero who was everything Peter isn't, so while Lehndorff might be able to vent about the Katte clan and feel better, because his beef with them is all events outside Lehndorff's control, Peter's going to be silently dying inside during this part of the convo. If the Kattes are that unworthy, and they *still* have more favor than he does...
Aw, I wouldn't want to cause him further angst. It's just that between Lehndorff coming across in the diaries as liking and admiring him and considering him the true hero of 1730, Lehndorff's general irritation at the Kattes (minus My Amiable Cousin), and Lehndorff's own issues with Fritz not promoting him (or at least transferring him to another job), well...
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Collected answers from the last post
Date: 2020-01-26 11:02 am (UTC)Me: ...I don't know about that, it seems to me that if you had a portrait of someone in your bedroom --
The ghost of Fritz, in the back: *raises hand*
ROTFLOL. Ah, but him and MT were special.
Also ROTFLOL. Don't forget Joseph! Joseph the Rational Fanboy, and Fritz the A+ Troll. (What do you think Peter III had in his bedroom?)
:) Well, firstly, Joseph having a Fritz portrait in his bedroom was something I've made up for the crack fic. I don't think he'd have gotten away with it in rl while Mom was alive. And afterwards he was out of his fanboy phase, though still impressed, of course. Mind you, he later did put up a portrait of Catherine there - after meeting her - so....
Secondly, you reposting the Casanova descriptions has reminded me that not only did Fritz have the MT portrait in his bedroom but that, according to Casanova, he had one of Barbarina as well as of D'Argens sister-in-law, who was also a dancer. The later two were Penses, so he might have had them for the artistic value and because Pense was the court painter whom he paid anyway. The MT portrait he actively asked for. So I maintain arch nemesis specialness!
Re: owner of the original "Sans Souci" trademark:
Per MacDonogh, "Sans Souci" was a childhood nickname of sister Charlotte, but for all I know, he's thinking of some other Charlotte. Would you happen to know, O Knowledgeable About the Siblings?
Nope, not mentioned in the bios I've read so far, at least not that I recall. However, I have not read...
Speaking of the siblings, having you read Pangels' Königskinder im Rokoko? He cites it a lot, but I have no idea if it's outdated (1976) or a good resource or what.
That. Though my local libraries probably have it. Aaaanyway, if Mantteuffel calls his country estate "Sorgenfrey", I doubt he did so after one of the Hohenzollern sisters who was already married off to Braunschweig by the time he started to hang out with Fritz. So my money is still on him for having come up with the name first, for now.
He could have Fritzplained so many things, Heinrich!
Well, he tried his best once Heinrich actually was in Russia. Probably while going via Suhm's old letters. ;)
(Can't help pointing out that Fritz's favorites were better, though. :P)
No contest if we're talking about his long term guys (minus Voltaire), but as we've seen, the witty pretties...
Incidentally, I should say that Heinrich's boyfriend disasters did have talents other than money wasting (and presumably sex); Mara really was a top musician (found an admiring reference in Lehndorff when Mara is still a teen in AW' s employ; Heinrich took over some of AW's staff that Louise wouldn't, including the artists, but since it was war didn't actually live with them until later; and then he financed Mara the musical studies in Paris, after which he did get involved with now grown up Mara, which, well, da capo al fine). Kalkreuth made a military career under FW2 and FW3 up to Field Marshal. (And, probably resentful because Heinrich had still dumped him for Kaphengst despite Kalkreuth having gone to the effort of compromising poor Mina, claimed he was the true genius of the Seven-Years-War and had devised all of Heinrich's strategies. Later historians, able to check who was when where and everyone's correspondance, didn't buy it, but Miraubeau did. So also did early historians offended at the Fritz criticism. "So he's claiming the Great King wasn't even that great, huh? Well, he certainly wasn't, it was all the boyfriend!") Tauentzien Jr., he of the teaching an actor to play Fritz at the Comedie Francaise, also made a military career under FW2 and FW3, though not as impressive as his Dad's under Fritz. Kaphengst seems to have been not just a party animal in the obvious sense but, before it got out of control someone with a gift to cheer up any society. (Early on, Lehndorff likes him way more than Kalkreuth, but that, err, changes later. Somehow I do not think it was solely because Kaphengst spent more and more of Heinrich's money...) Which wasn't to be underestimated because Heinrich in the mid 1760s comes across as permanently depressed and in a bad mood, lashing out at people (poor Mina). Not that surprising when you consider the war was over, the post of post traumatic stress had arrived, and essentially he was suddenly without an occupation again. I mean, living the country life in Rheinsberg is lovely, but he wasn't even forty, and going from basically co-commander of the army to gentleman of leisure with no government responsibilities at that age? Equally unsurprisingly, this starts to turn around when by the end of the 1760s he gets to travel abroad for the first time (the Netherlands, Sweden, Russia) and gets to work as a diplomat and negotiator. Cue end of Heinrich the melancholic and bad tempered and return of Heinrich the charming and endearing in Lehndorff's journals.
Which incidentally would imply Thiébault had access to Wilhelmine's memoirs, probably via all those exiled intellectuals at Fritz's court, and Catt didn't.
I noticed Hamilton and Preuß both have it in for Thiébault and call him "unreliable". Possibly because of the similarities to W & P? Anyway, preface editor quotes him snarking about Catt a bit (not in terms of reliability, just that he, T, had to do the actual reading as in reading out loud when Fritz didn't do it himself because Catt's voice wasn't even that pleasant) but cautions that he considers T as somewhat unreliable, too. What the diary editor with all the listing of Catt's alternate sources which I quoted in my comment above never mentions are W's memoirs, or even the possibility of them. Maybe potentially chatty Bayreuth artists just thought Catt would blab to Fritz and Thiebault would not?
On the other hand! Fritz has Voltaire arrested for possessing poetry that Fritz wrote that he doesn't want the rest of Europe to see; sends Voltaire more potentially damning poetry almost immediately after getting back in touch with Voltaire*. I know Voltaire is special, but sometimes Fritz's judgment...
Very true. And Preface writer quotes a couple of non-Catt sources on him being a very likeable fellow when he starts out with Fritz, among them D'Argens (who also assures Fritz he can absolutely trust Catt. Then again, D'Argens had also reccommended de Prades.)
There's also another tidbit Catt and Voltaire have that agrees with W/P/T, to which they don't have access: Fritz thought *he* was about to be executed.
Now this can't have come from Eichel - which, see other comment, preface writer says proded Catt with other information - and thus sounds like a genuine Fritz information.
Oof. Well, my Peter has strong feelings of insecurity around Hans Hermann, the romantic hero who was everything Peter isn't, so while Lehndorff might be able to vent about the Katte clan and feel better, because his beef with them is all events outside Lehndorff's control, Peter's going to be silently dying inside during this part of the convo. If the Kattes are that unworthy, and they *still* have more favor than he does...
Aw, I wouldn't want to cause him further angst. It's just that between Lehndorff coming across in the diaries as liking and admiring him and considering him the true hero of 1730, Lehndorff's general irritation at the Kattes (minus My Amiable Cousin), and Lehndorff's own issues with Fritz not promoting him (or at least transferring him to another job), well...